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Old 02-02-2013, 10:48 PM   #1
Saintpat
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Default Is there a sane argument that Pep > Saddler?

It seems a lot of people right Willie Pep as greater than the guy who owned him head-to-head in his own era.

How does that work, exactly?

Saddler was clearly better and proved it emphatically. Is there some other way to look at this that I am misisng?
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:56 PM   #2
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Default Re: Is there a sane argument that Pep > Saddler?

The argument in bullet points is:

- Pep was never the same after enduring a plane crash and was in decline
- Pep beat many more rated contenders
- Pep's record is less patchy
- The last two fights were indecisive (Pep winning third, retiring due to shoulder - fourth was a foul fest, Pep winning until eye injury retirement)

Still, Saddler KO4 Pep has to be one of the all-time victories.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:57 PM   #3
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Default Re: Is there a sane argument that Pep > Saddler?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintpat View Post
It seems a lot of people right Willie Pep as greater than the guy who owned him head-to-head in his own era.

How does that work, exactly?

Saddler was clearly better and proved it emphatically. Is there some other way to look at this that I am misisng?
Well maybe you can look at it as Willie Pep was in a plane crash and was thought that he might not have even been able to walk again, so when he went back and kept fighting it was obvious he wasnt the same fighter at all...
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:59 PM   #4
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Default Re: Is there a sane argument that Pep > Saddler?

same kind of reasoning where mosley > forrest

h2h is one thing certainly, but ranking is based on dominance, resume, performances, etc.

frankly pep did better, longer against better competition overall in his career. saddler owned him, was his kryptonite but just didn't have the same career
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:08 PM   #5
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Default Re: Is there a sane argument that Pep > Saddler?

Its that he didn't prove it emphatically. Sandy legit won 3 of the 4 but after losing the second was according to the scribes of the day being more clearly outboxed and beaten by Willy in the 3rd until the injury, and slightly behind in the 4th go also until Willy was injured after being thrown. If you added up the rounds they fought Willy was clearly the winner so to speak,,,,and so the discrepency. Their series wasn't like Hagler and Antofurmo had they fought 4 times with Marvin dominating him the last 3 times (had they), Willy was in command on the cards until the injuries during the last 3 bouts.
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:10 PM   #6
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Default Re: Is there a sane argument that Pep > Saddler?

didn't zivic twice, clearly beat armstrong near the end of his true prime in 38? no one would rate zivic higher than armstrong. some styles man, some styles are just designed to **** up another fighter
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:14 PM   #7
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Default Re: Is there a sane argument that Pep > Saddler?

Plane crash.

Saddler's wins over Pep are great, but plane crash. Pep winning the 2nd fight - beating Sandy ****in' Saddler after surviving a plane crash - is some freaky magic nonsense.
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:16 PM   #8
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Default Re: Is there a sane argument that Pep > Saddler?

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Originally Posted by the cobra View Post
Plane crash.

Saddler's wins over Pep are great, but plane crash. Pep winning the 2nd fight - beating Sandy ****in' Saddler after surviving a plane crash - is some freaky magic stuff.
said it before, possibly the greatest victory of all time
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:16 PM   #9
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Default Re: Is there a sane argument that Pep > Saddler?

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Originally Posted by the cobra View Post
Plane crash.

Saddler's wins over Pep are great, but plane crash. Pep winning the 2nd fight - beating Sandy ****in' Saddler after surviving a plane crash - is some freaky magic stuff.
I think Pep is one of the few that could do that, that in itself if something
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:16 PM   #10
the cobra
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Default Re: Is there a sane argument that Pep > Saddler?

You guys think 'nonsense' works better than 'stuff?'

I went with it.
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:20 PM   #11
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Default Re: Is there a sane argument that Pep > Saddler?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post
didn't zivic twice, clearly beat armstrong near the end of his true prime in 38? no one would rate zivic higher than armstrong. some styles man, some styles are just designed to **** up another fighter
That and circumstances. Armstrong's schedule was crazy at that time, his scar tissue was just waiting to be torn by a man like Zivic.
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:43 PM   #12
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Default Re: Is there a sane argument that Pep > Saddler?

Lol. Obviously the TS has never actually seen the fights.
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:48 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is there a sane argument that Pep > Saddler?

The results don't support the plane-crash thing -- seems only Sadler was able to overcome him, while the crash didn't take enough out of him to allow lesser guys to do so. He was out for six months -- and presumably back in training for at least a couple of months before he stepped into the ring, so more like four or so actually -- and won like 25 fights in a row before he met Sadler. He boxed on for quite a long time after the plane crash, so the 'he was never the same again' doesn't hold water: if Sadler had never been born he would have finished out his career without another loss after the plane crash.

The 'eye injury' was a cut -- something that happens in boxing all the time. The eye was injured in the course of a fight, he didn't cut it shaving. Yes, it was a rough-and-tumble, dirty affair, but it's not like Saddler pulled a knife on him. I don't see how stopping a guy on cuts while behind minimizes the victory, especially considering Saddler won 3 out of 4. The shoulder injury is another in-fight happenstance, not something that happened when he tripped walking down the aisle.

Count it how you want, but Pep, a guy with the heart of a lion against everyone else, quit twice against Saddler. When Sonny Liston did it, people quesiton his fortitude and yell fixed fight. When LaMotta won the title against a guy who fought with one arm into the late rounds, you don't see people screaming that the win was indecisive and that a guy who died with a 111-4 record was actually the better man.

The results speak for themselves. Saddler > Pep.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:31 AM   #14
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Default Re: Is there a sane argument that Pep > Saddler?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintpat View Post
The results don't support the plane-crash thing -- seems only Sadler was able to overcome him, while the crash didn't take enough out of him to allow lesser guys to do so.
Well it seems you answered this one yourself. It took Saddler to dethrone him.

Saddler-Pep three and particularly four were dirty fights. Saddler thumbed the past prime Pep quite badly. They tripped up each other and all sorts.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:36 AM   #15
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Default Re: Is there a sane argument that Pep > Saddler?

....the only fight of the four that didn't have the boys at jacob's beach thinking there was something with peculiar odor in the air was the second one.

this is not to say that sandy wasn't a great fighter.
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