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Old 02-05-2013, 01:11 PM   #46
Bokaj
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Default Re: Duran vs Leonard who fought Hagler better?

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Maybe that's why he survived Hearns too, in the end.

His psychological warfare against Hagler also worked really well, Hagler was a bit stupid probably for not directly fighting southpaw, but that was his choice.
Would be interesting to hear Hagler explain why he choose that tactic. It was not rare for him to switch, but even so it was a bit surprising.

Hagler also should have had a fight in between Mugabi and Leonard. Just a fringe contender that gave him some rounds under the belt.

But he, like everyone else, probably just thought it so absurd that Leonard should be a threat to him at that stage that he didn't think it necessary. Or that he needed 15 rds for that sake.
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:24 PM   #47
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Default Re: Duran vs Leonard who fought Hagler better?

It's kinda funny to see somebody argue and explain a point I never made. I simply said what SRL said... He waited until Hagler was slipping before he decided to fight him. Nothing more nothing less. But this goes against your argument that if SRL was younger he would win easier.. He clearly didn't think so, so I'll go ahead and go with his thoughts on his form, shape and skills against Hagler.
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:56 PM   #48
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Default Re: Duran vs Leonard who fought Hagler better?

He came back because he thought he could win.

He never says in his book he was waiting for Hagler to decline. He even mentions his layoff and how crappy he felt during the Howard fight as reasons to stay retired; Then, Duran told him he would beat Hagler if they fought, and he saw the Mugabi fight, and he said to himself, "I'm going to try this, I can do it."

He went out and got the fight when Hagler started declining, yes, but he in no way waited him out. If he was waiting him out, he'd have been in the gym, taking care of his body, and avoiding hard drugs. He was a fat addict TV commentator for the Mugabi fight.

Duran may have been past his best weight and day, but he was still a professional fighter. Leonard, when he fought Hagler, was NOT.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:04 PM   #49
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Default Re: Duran vs Leonard who fought Hagler better?

One thing people forget is, Leonard was a super fight where as Duran was a blown up lightweight who was a bit of a hurdle and should have been pretty much a gimme

If you were Hagler, which would you be most up for? Who would you train hardest for?
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:05 PM   #50
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Default Re: Duran vs Leonard who fought Hagler better?

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I love how these kind of analysises always conveniently forgets one thing: LEONARD HAD FOUGHT ONLY ONCE IN 5 YEARS, AND NEVER AT MW, BEFORE FACING HAGLER

Show me one other example in the history of boxing where a fighter have been out that long before coming back and beating a dominant ATG champion in a higher weight class than he's ever been in before?
He's admitted having several behind closed doors, bona fide 12 rounders and almost getting ko'd in one of them.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:16 PM   #51
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Default Re: Duran vs Leonard who fought Hagler better?

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He's admitted having several behind closed doors, bona fide 12 rounders and almost getting ko'd in one of them.
Over 6 months of camp? Even more of a handicap.

Shaking off rust isn't a matter of just racking up rounds and getting the tar kicked out of you. You can't just go get your ass beat for 45 minutes and say, yay, I'm not rusty anymore! It's a process. Look at how carefully Vitali trained a rehabbed for two years prepping for Peter. Came back and looked alright against a limited opponent.

Leonard did something similar. He got back into shape, and rushed into the ring to meet an ATG who was bigger than he was, and he fought alright against a guy who limited himself, and he won. Hagler was beyond troubled in the fight; He was livid, frustrated, and well outboxed, even if you do think he outfought Leonard in seven rounds. He was, on the whole, outsped, and made to look foolish in multiple rounds.

Duran was pesky and hung around, but he was well beaten. Hagler was only troubled in that he was confused at points, and overly cautious.

I don't understand how this is even a debate. I feel like some people don't understand how impossible a performance like the one Leonard turned in is on the facts. I sure as hell couldn't do it. Even Vitali Klitschko coming back looked NOTHING like himself, all swats and arm punches and some funny moments of bad balance. Leonard came back and put on a SRL performance against Marvin freaking Hagler.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:45 PM   #52
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Default Re: Duran vs Leonard who fought Hagler better?

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It's kinda funny to see somebody argue and explain a point I never made. I simply said what SRL said... He waited until Hagler was slipping before he decided to fight him. Nothing more nothing less. But this goes against your argument that if SRL was younger he would win easier.. He clearly didn't think so, so I'll go ahead and go with his thoughts on his form, shape and skills against Hagler.
Nowhere has Leonard said that he retired to avoid Hagler. Or even that he was biding his time for that example.

To the contrary, what he says is: "People have speculated that I lured Hagler into being vulnerable on purpose, to soften him up, because I had already decided to come out of retirement. That wasn't the case..."

Last edited by Bokaj; 02-05-2013 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:48 PM   #53
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Default Re: Duran vs Leonard who fought Hagler better?

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He's admitted having several behind closed doors, bona fide 12 rounders and almost getting ko'd in one of them.
They weren't quite fights. They had headgears for one thing. And the guy would have knocked him out if he hadn't held back on purpose, according to Leonard.
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:52 PM   #54
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Default Re: Duran vs Leonard who fought Hagler better?

They didn't have head guards, and I don't accept the other guys claim that such preparation was more of a hindrance.
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:13 PM   #55
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Default Re: Duran vs Leonard who fought Hagler better?

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They didn't have head guards, and I don't accept the other guys claim that such preparation was more of a hindrance.
Are you saying that his lay-off had no effect? Are you actually saying that?

And would you the say the same about Jeffries, Dempsey, Tyson etc?

If you do, you don't know jack shit. On that level you can't be away for that long and not lose anything. Never mind if you're boozing and coking in the mean time. Just won't happen.

Leonard prepared himself very well, but in no way was he the same fighter. You just have to look at the fight to see the difference in stamina and recuperation. Denying this, either tells me you've got Duran's nuts in your mouthh or know nothing about boxing. Probably both.

You do realize you actually have a pro here that has taken time off and told you how hard it is to get back? What does your expertise rest on? Besides having a lot of Duran posters?
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:00 PM   #56
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Default Re: Duran vs Leonard who fought Hagler better?

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Are you saying that his lay-off had no effect? Are you actually saying that?
No, what I saying is this: When a person with limited comprehension skills attempts to extract the crux of a statement, there's a considerable likelihood that things will go awry and windmills will be aggressively confronted by the lance.

I made an inconsequential statement about behind closed doors fights; disagreed with MagnaNasakki about such activities being a handicap; and rejected your claim about the headgear pertaining to those fights. No affirmative statement about the thread's question was ever made.

So how does one proceed from such modest material to a grand hissy fit in the sky incorporating the negative effects of layoffs, the physical degeneration of Ray Leonard and the performance of homo***ual acts on Roberto Duran?

Just bizarre.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:43 PM   #57
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Default Re: Duran vs Leonard who fought Hagler better?

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Originally Posted by Vyborg1917 View Post
No, what I saying is this: When a person with limited comprehension skills attempts to extract the crux of a statement, there's a considerable likelihood that things will go awry and windmills will be aggressively confronted by the lance.

I made an inconsequential statement about behind closed doors fights; disagreed with MagnaNasakki about such activities being a handicap; and rejected your claim about the headgear pertaining to those fights. No affirmative statement about the thread's question was ever made.

So how does one proceed from such modest material to a grand hissy fit in the sky incorporating the negative effects of layoffs, the physical degeneration of Ray Leonard and the performance of homo***ual acts on Roberto Duran?

Just bizarre.
Some have said that head gears were used. Perhaps they were, perhaps they weren't. The sparring sessions weren't like actual fights, though, since in that case Leonard would have been KO'd by the sparring partner who hurt him. As it is, Leonard says that the guy held back a lot when he saw that Leonard was groggy. Hardly something an actual opponent would do.

Doesn't really matter which, though, since no one disputes that Leonard prepared himself very well for the fight. Perhaps as well as he could without any tune-ups against (preferrably against top quality opposition - like how for example Ali faced two top contenders before Frazier).

So exactly what was your point?
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:58 PM   #58
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Default Re: Duran vs Leonard who fought Hagler better?

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disagreed with MagnaNasakki about such activities being a handicap;
Leonard says he had about 100 sparring rds only in the fall of 1986. If they were fought as full-blown fights that would equate about a fight a week. For a guy that's been inactive for years. And then a similar regimen during the spring.

Of course Magna is right that he would have been burned out by that.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:04 PM   #59
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Default Re: Duran vs Leonard who fought Hagler better?

The reutrn of the Robertards
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:07 PM   #60
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Default Re: Duran vs Leonard who fought Hagler better?

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Leonard says he had about 100 sparring rds only in the fall of 1986. If they were fought as full-blown fights that would equate about a fight a week. For a guy that's been inactive for years. And then a similar regimen during the spring.

Of course Magna is right that he would have been burned out by that.
I mean, jesus. Talk about being sore and beat up.

And it doesn't really matter how hard he prepared. Still doesn't negate the layoff and the rust.

Again, I suggest y'all do it. Go back to something you haven't done in five years, practice for a couple of months, and do it at the highest level you had previously gotten too. You won't win, you'll probably embarrass yourself. Leonard's accomplishment transcends even sports. It's just not something most people are able to do.
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