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Old 02-06-2013, 11:14 AM   #16
Cmoyle
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

"I'm confused now, do you have definitive proof he signed the contract or not?"

The only proof I have is the statement that the NCS produced the document with his signature and that a photo of it was published in the Morning World. I don't have that photo. That's what I'm saying someone would have to track down to compare the signature. But, I have a hard time believing the NCS would say he signed it and share the document as proof if he hadn't.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:15 AM   #17
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

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"I'm confused now, do you have definitive proof he signed the contract or not?"

The only proof I have is the statement that the NCS produced the document with his signature and that a photo of it was published in the Morning World. I don't have that photo. That's what I'm saying someone would have to track down to compare the signature. But, I have a hard time believi0ng the NCS would say he signed it and share the document as proof if he hadn't.
Oh, ok I'm with you now, the jurys still out as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:27 AM   #18
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

"the jurys still out as far as I'm concerned."

I guess I could make the effort to try and track that newspaper article/photo down but I tend to believe it was signed by Johnson, and since I didn't come across anything AFTER Bettinson provided the document that indicates Johnson claimed the document was false or contained a forged signature I'll leave it to anyone else who cares enough pursue this any further. There is already enough evidence to convict him in my own mind
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:48 AM   #19
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

At the end of the day, I don't think Johnson refused to fight Langford. I just think he wanted market price for the fight, a fight which he knew wasn't just a walk in the park. He always figured if Burns could get 30k for a very tough opponent like himself, then fair is fair and he wanted 30k too for a tough foe. Especially since he had to suffer for so long fighting every tough black fighter out there, and for smaller purses than champions were getting, plus he took a very small share of the very large proceeds for the Burns fight. Once he became champion, he felt it was his time to dictate and make the big bucks. Plus, later, after the Jeffries fight made both fighters huge money, that showed Johnson that if a fight was built up enough, he could earn a lot of money. Once you've fought for 60k, fighting a tough guy for 20k or 25k doesn't sound so great, particularly when you don't have to train and can make easy money in vaudeville, and not have to risk the crown, which title was of great economic value to him.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:51 AM   #20
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

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At the end of the day, I don't think Johnson refused to fight Langford. I just think he wanted market price for the fight, a fight which he knew wasn't just a walk in the park. He always figured if Burns could get 30k for a very tough opponent like himself, then fair is fair and he wanted 30k too for a tough foe. Especially since he had to suffer for so long fighting every tough black fighter out there, and for smaller purses than champions were getting, plus he took a very small share of the very large proceeds for the Burns fight. Once he became champion, he felt it was his time to dictate and make the big bucks. Plus, later, after the Jeffries fight made both fighters huge money, that showed Johnson that if a fight was built up enough, he could earn a lot of money. Once you've fought for 60k, fighting a tough guy for 20k or 25k doesn't sound so great, particularly when you don't have to train and can make easy money in vaudeville, and not have to risk the crown, which title was of great economic value to him.
Thats my take on it , why fight Langford for a moderate purse when he could get more for defending against the likes of Flynn?


Below a link that states Johnson has agreed to fight Langford for 6000.July 1914


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]--

Last edited by mcvey; 02-06-2013 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:18 PM   #21
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

Flynn was no slouch. He was coming off impressive performances against big strong men in Kaufman (who Johnson had said was the best white)(who had recent victories over Ross, Lang, and O'Brien), and Carl Morris (who was then being highly touted, particularly since he had wins over Schreck and Hart). Flynn was bigger, stronger, and more experienced than when he first fought Johnson, and was on a nice win streak. So it wasn't that easy of a fight in its inception. But Johnson got his asking price, so he took the fight. The promoter, who bankrolled the fight, Jack Curley, really believed in Flynn and was convinced that he would win the championship.

Last edited by apollack; 02-06-2013 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:28 PM   #22
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

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Flynn was no slouch. He was coming off impressive performances against big strong men in Kaufman (who Johnson had said was the best white)(who had recent victories over Ross, Lang, and O'Brien), and Carl Morris (who was then being highly touted, particularly since he had wins over Schreck and Hart). Flynn was bigger, stronger, and more experienced than when he first fought Johnson, and was on a nice win streak. So it wasn't that easy of a fight in its inception. But Johnson got his asking price, so he took the fight. The promoter, who bankrolled the fight, Jack Curley, really believed in Flynn and was convinced that he would win the championship.
Instead of which he was convincingly, and effortlessly outclassed.
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Old 02-06-2013, 02:43 PM   #23
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

"At the end of the day, I don't think Johnson refused to fight Langford. I just think he wanted market price for the fight, a fight which he knew wasn't just a walk in the park."

Maybe, but the following doesn't sound to me like a guy who really wanted any part of him:

Australian promoter, Hugh McIntosh:

"Johnson was not afraid of a hiding, but he did not want to risk his title. I spent months trying to persuade Johnson to agree to a match with Langford, but he obstinately refused and one day he frankly told me the reason.

“Say, Mister Mac,” he drawled, “you’re only wasting your time talking to me. I don’t want to fight that little smoke. He’s got a chance against anyone in the world. I’m the first black champion and I’m going to be the last.”
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Old 02-06-2013, 03:26 PM   #24
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

[quote=Cmoyle;14716281]"At the end of the day, I don't think Johnson refused to fight Langford. I just think he wanted market price for the fight, a fight which he knew wasn't just a walk in the park."

Maybe, but the following doesn't sound to me like a guy who really wanted any part of him:

Australian promoter, Hugh McIntosh:

"Johnson was not afraid of a hiding, but he did not want to risk his title. I spent months trying to persuade Johnson to agree to a match with Langford, but he obstinately refused and one day he frankly told me the reason.

Say, Mister Mac, he drawled, youre only wasting your time talking to me. I dont want to fight that little smoke. Hes got a chance against anyone in the world. Im the first black champion and Im going to be the last.[/quote]
Well, he had the whole- hearted complicity of the white US public in that objective didn't he?
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Old 02-06-2013, 05:34 PM   #25
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

Johnson was going to fight Langford in Australia but McIntosh pulled the offer after all the Lucille Cameron abduction charges.
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Old 02-06-2013, 05:40 PM   #26
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

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Johnson was going to fight Langford in Australia but McIntosh pulled the offer after all the Lucille Cameron abduction charges.
It appears if anyone can be blamed for Johnson not defending against his black challengers. The US Government is in the frame.
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:40 AM   #27
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

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I totally agree, Johnson should have honoured his agreement.

I also think Bettinson was being less than reasonable with his terms knowing full well that Johnson's bargaining power would be considerably increased as champion.
What is your take on Mullins opinion regarding Johnson v Langford post 1908? It seems to reverse conventional theories of their respective chances.

CONGRATULATIONS! Yes, he should have honoured his agreement.
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:50 AM   #28
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

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Flynn was no slouch. He was coming off impressive performances against big strong men in Kaufman (who Johnson had said was the best white)(who had recent victories over Ross, Lang, and O'Brien), and Carl Morris (who was then being highly touted, particularly since he had wins over Schreck and Hart). Flynn was bigger, stronger, and more experienced than when he first fought Johnson, and was on a nice win streak. So it wasn't that easy of a fight in its inception. But Johnson got his asking price, so he took the fight. The promoter, who bankrolled the fight, Jack Curley, really believed in Flynn and was convinced that he would win the championship.

Adam,


Flynn was a not a top level " white hope " . He was behind Willard, and Smith for sure, and did not have the potential of say McCarty. Flynn was a short journeyman type who's style was made to order for Johnson. His performance was poor.


Out of curiosity, from 1909-1915, who do you think were the top five threats to take Johnson's crown?


I would say Langford, Jeannette, McVey, Smith, And Willard.
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:31 AM   #29
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

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Adam,


Flynn was a not a top level " white hope " . He was behind Willard, and Smith for sure, and did not have the potential of say McCarty. Flynn was a short journeyman type who's style was made to order for Johnson. His performance was poor.


Out of curiosity, from 1909-1915, who do you think were the top five threats to take Johnson's crown?


I would say Langford, Jeannette, McVey, Smith, And Willard.


Flynn went into his second fight with Johnson sporting 1 loss in his last 15 fights and that to Langford, whom he had previously beaten. Nine of the wins were by ko .

He held wins by ko over Bill Squires, Georger Gardner, and Jack Root, the latter both won world titles. Flynn had 2 draws with Jim Barry despite conceding him 20lbs .Barry beat Gunboat Smith twice once by ko[see photo below] ,and drew with Jeannette and Langford. Johnson defended against Flynn because Jack Curley guaranteed him $30,000.


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]



Flynn a journeyman type?

He went into the 15thrd with Tommy Burns, and has the following wins on his record.

Dempsey
Langford
Root
Gardner
Norton
Kaufman
Sullivan
Papke
Squires
Morris
Flowers [he was 44 when he beat Flowers]. That's victories over 6 world champions ,and another over a p4p ATG.


If Flynn was a journeyman ,I wonder what you would call Jack Munroe, and Jack Finnegan ,both title challengers to Jim Jeffries?

Last edited by mcvey; 02-07-2013 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:39 AM   #30
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

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congratulations! Yes, he should have honoured his agreement.
If he actually signed the contract. This has not been proven.
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