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Old 02-07-2013, 11:20 AM   #31
Cmoyle
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

"It appears if anyone can be blamed for Johnson not defending against his black challengers. The US Government is in the frame."

Pretty thin. He avoided Langford for years and the U.S. government is primarily to blame for that because of what eventually occured with the Mann Act? On another subject, I can't help myself, I am now officially on the hunt for the published photo of the agreement that Bettinson claimed was signed by Johnson to return and fight Langford before the NSC should he defeat Burns in Australia. It may take a while as I'll have to obtain and dig thru microfilm for it.
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:32 AM   #32
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

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Originally Posted by Cmoyle View Post
"It appears if anyone can be blamed for Johnson not defending against his black challengers. The US Government is in the frame."

Pretty thin. He avoided Langford for years and the U.S. government is primarily to blame for that because of what eventually occured with the Mann Act? On another subject, I can't help myself, I am now officially on the hunt for the published photo of the agreement that Bettinson claimed was signed by Johnson to return and fight Langford before the NSC should he defeat Burns in Australia. It may take a while as I'll have to obtain and dig thru microfilm for it.
The US Government, and the US Public who evinced no demand for an all black heavyweight title fight .
On the other subject.
Good for you if you find it at least we will know one way or the other.
You just needed a little nudging didn't you.
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:12 PM   #33
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

"You just needed a little nudging didn't you."

Yes, damn you. But, I'm sure it will prove interesting, I inevitably stumble across other topics of interest while searching these kind of newspapers so there are worse ways to spend my time.
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Old 02-07-2013, 01:04 PM   #34
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

In the meantime, the following from page 11 of the April 10, 1909 New York Times:

Johnson’s National Club Contract
The National Sporting Club seems to have a case against the negro Jack Johnson, champion pugilist, who has repudiated the match with Sam Langford, scheduled for the English club on May 24. The following copy of Johnson’s letter to the National Sporting Club has been received here:
“National Sporting Club, Ltd.,
Covent Garden, W.C.
London, Sept. 19, 1908
“Gentlemen – I undertake and agree to carry out my agreement with Sam Langford on the 22nd of February, 1909, on the same terms and conditions as already arranged with Langford, viz.: One-thousand pounds purse ($5,000) and one-third of the interest in any biscopic pictures that may be taken. At the same time allow me to tender my thanks to you for the courtesy you have extended to myself and my manager, Mr. Sam Fitzpatrick, whilst we have been in this country. I am, gentlemen, yours faithfully,
“(Signed) JACK JOHNSON,”
Feb. 22 was the date named originally for the Langford-Johnson bout, and when Burns consented to fight Johnson in Australia the National Sporting Club agreed to let the match with Langford go over on May 24, Johnson stipulating to return to London and meet Langford, no matter what the outcome of the bout with Burns might be.”

Note, that it say's they are in receipt of a copy of Johnson's letter to National Sporting Club and they indicate it was signed by Johnson.
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Old 02-07-2013, 02:26 PM   #35
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

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Originally Posted by Cmoyle View Post
In the meantime, the following from page 11 of the April 10, 1909 New York Times:

Johnson’s National Club Contract
The National Sporting Club seems to have a case against the negro Jack Johnson, champion pugilist, who has repudiated the match with Sam Langford, scheduled for the English club on May 24. The following copy of Johnson’s letter to the National Sporting Club has been received here:
“National Sporting Club, Ltd.,
Covent Garden, W.C.
London, Sept. 19, 1908
“Gentlemen – I undertake and agree to carry out my agreement with Sam Langford on the 22nd of February, 1909, on the same terms and conditions as already arranged with Langford, viz.: One-thousand pounds purse ($5,000) and one-third of the interest in any biscopic pictures that may be taken. At the same time allow me to tender my thanks to you for the courtesy you have extended to myself and my manager, Mr. Sam Fitzpatrick, whilst we have been in this country. I am, gentlemen, yours faithfully,
“(Signed) JACK JOHNSON,”
Feb. 22 was the date named originally for the Langford-Johnson bout, and when Burns consented to fight Johnson in Australia the National Sporting Club agreed to let the match with Langford go over on May 24, Johnson stipulating to return to London and meet Langford, no matter what the outcome of the bout with Burns might be.”

Note, that it say's they are in receipt of a copy of Johnson's letter to National Sporting Club and they indicate it was signed by Johnson.
Looks like you are on your way to nailing this one Clay.
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Old 02-07-2013, 03:50 PM   #36
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

Okay, so let's say Johnson changed his mind. Fighters do that all the time. Perhaps there is diminished honor in that, but I don't think it makes him afraid of Langford. That purse was absolute garbage. Any manager worth his salt would reject it immediately. At some point, Johnson realized it was a screw job financially, and decided not to do it.
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Old 02-07-2013, 04:13 PM   #37
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

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Okay, so let's say Johnson changed his mind. Fighters do that all the time. Perhaps there is diminished honor in that, but I don't think it makes him afraid of Langford. That purse was absolute garbage. Any manager worth his salt would reject it immediately. At some point, Johnson realized it was a screw job financially, and decided not to do it.
I wonder if this had a lot to do with Jack parting company with Fitzpatrick?

Can you imagine Floyd Mayweather waiting outside while his manager negotiated behind a closed door, then being told at the conclusion," basically, you're fighting for coffee and donoughts?"
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:40 PM   #38
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

"Okay, so let's say Johnson changed his mind. Fighters do that all the time. Perhaps there is diminished honor in that, but I don't think it makes him afraid of Langford. That purse was absolute garbage. Any manager worth his salt would reject it immediately."

When I read that letter it sounds to me as though Johnson and his manager had already agreed to fight Langford before the club for a figure of 1,000 pounds (or approximately $5,000) and one-third of the proceeds from any fight pictures. Keep in mind this was before he became champion so I'm not sure I'd agree that was a garbage purse at that particular point in time under the circumstances. In comparison, Langford had received a purse of only $1,500 when he fought "Tiger" Smith there in April of 1907 in a contest they billed as a middleweight title bout.

Clearly, Johnson realized he could demand a larger purse after he defeated Burns though. My only point was that the scumbag backed out of an agreement he made to return and fight Langford for that amount afterward, win or lose, in exchange for delaying the contest and financing his trip to Australia.
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:01 PM   #39
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

"scumbag" a bit much don't you think? That scumbag easily.. and I mean EASILY destroyed Sam.
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:22 PM   #40
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

I think it's quite obvious that Johnson had no intention of going back to London to fight Langford on those terms all Johnson was interested in was getting the finances together as quickly as possible to get to Australia and burns . And I can't see Johnson wanting to risk his tittle against Langford or any other top level challenger in a first defence unless a very large sum of money was guaranteed . After all champions liked to cash in on the tittle before having a possible high risk defence
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:30 AM   #41
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

""scumbag" a bit much don't you think? That scumbag easily.. and I mean EASILY destroyed Sam."

I'm unimpressed that he beat a 20 year old that weighed anywhere from 140-156 pounds at the time via a 15-round decision, regardless of how easy it may or may not have been. As far as I'm concerned it's a black mark against him that he never met Langford again after he'd matured into into a legitimate light-heavyweight and became the # 1 contender. I don't buy into the view that the main reason he didn't fight him was financial. I don't have any respect for title holders that fail to meet leading contenders because they view them as too dangerous to risk their title against or because they want to milk the title for all its worth in terms of financial gain. In my view, they're no better than those that drew the color line to avoid dangerous opponents and its one of the worst things about the boxing game. I'm also not convinced Johnson would have ever gone to Australia to face Langford regardless of what transpired with the Mann Act. But, this horse has been beaten to death in numerous threads and there is no resolution in sight.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:12 AM   #42
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

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Originally Posted by Cmoyle View Post
""scumbag" a bit much don't you think? That scumbag easily.. and I mean EASILY destroyed Sam."

I'm unimpressed that he beat a 20 year old that weighed anywhere from 140-156 pounds at the time via a 15-round decision, regardless of how easy it may or may not have been. As far as I'm concerned it's a black mark against him that he never met Langford again after he'd matured into into a legitimate light-heavyweight and became the # 1 contender. I don't buy into the view that the main reason he didn't fight him was financial. I don't have any respect for title holders that fail to meet leading contenders because they view them as too dangerous to risk their title against or because they want to milk the title for all its worth in terms of financial gain. In my view, they're no better than those that drew the color line to avoid dangerous opponents and its one of the worst things about the boxing game. I'm also not convinced Johnson would have ever gone to Australia to face Langford regardless of what transpired with the Mann Act. But, this horse has been beaten to death in numerous threads and there is no resolution in sight.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:36 AM   #43
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

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Originally Posted by Cmoyle View Post
"Okay, so let's say Johnson changed his mind. Fighters do that all the time. Perhaps there is diminished honor in that, but I don't think it makes him afraid of Langford. That purse was absolute garbage. Any manager worth his salt would reject it immediately."

When I read that letter it sounds to me as though Johnson and his manager had already agreed to fight Langford before the club for a figure of 1,000 pounds (or approximately $5,000) and one-third of the proceeds from any fight pictures. Keep in mind this was before he became champion so I'm not sure I'd agree that was a garbage purse at that particular point in time under the circumstances. In comparison, Langford had received a purse of only $1,500 when he fought "Tiger" Smith there in April of 1907 in a contest they billed as a middleweight title bout.

Clearly, Johnson realized he could demand a larger purse after he defeated Burns though. My only point was that the scumbag backed out of an agreement he made to return and fight Langford for that amount afterward, win or lose, in exchange for delaying the contest and financing his trip to Australia.
Ouch! Objectivity appears to have gone for a walk here.
Did your research into Sam maybe colour your views on Johnson somewhat?
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:30 AM   #44
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

Off subject a bit here but champions not keeping to written agreements has happened through the years and is still happening today take Alexander pulling out of the brook fight with a supposed injury . When he was really thinking he would be taking a bigger purse and fighting mayweather , the scumbag
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:17 AM   #45
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Default Re: Johnson reneged on agreement to fight Langford

"Ouch! Objectivity appears to have gone for a walk here.
Did your research into Sam maybe colour your views on Johnson somewhat?"

No, I don't think so, and I don't believe that anybody who has read my book about Langford would conclude it doesn't provide an objective view. But, I think it's obvious from my comments here that I don't have as much respect for Johnson or hold him in as high esteem as some and I think that's a result of my own research.
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