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Old 01-14-2009, 08:15 PM   #1
$.02
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Thumbs down How should we rate Felix Trinidad when Compared to Roberto Duran & Pipo cuerves?

When i think of these three, I think of BoneCrushing Power. However With Felix Trinidad, I am a bit sketchy.........





On September 29, 2001 before the fight between Bernard Hopkins and Felix Trinidad, team Hopkins sent a representative from their team to over-see Tito's hands being wrapped. When their representative arrived he was shocked to see that Tito's left hand was already wrapped, signed off and the boxing glove was on. In an exclusive interview Bernard Hopkins (said), "I sent my team in there to watch Trinidad wrap his hands and when they got there Trinidad's left hand was already wrapped and he had his boxing glove on. So my trainer, Bouie Fisher who has been doing this stuff for a long time went over there to straighten it up. The thing is Trinidad has been getting away with doing this for a long time. I know for a fact that he has done it at least one other fight. They are used to being able to do whatever they want and get away with it. That is how it is in boxing."

First of all, you have to wonder who this commissioner was that let Don Felix wrap Tito's hand without anyone from the Hopkins camp being there. Hopkins said, "not only did he let him wrap the hands without us being there, but he was in there joking and laughing and talking Spanish with the Trinidads like they were best friends. When Bouie told them that he would have to take it off and rewrap it in front of someone fron their camp, he said "NO," its already wrapped and it's too close to time for the fight to start. Bouie had to go to the head commissioner before they were made to rewrap his hands."

Luckily for Hopkins, Bouie Fisher is old school and he was not going to let this fight go on with Tito having wrapped his left hand and nobody from his camp watching it. "Bouie kept telling them, either we do this by the book or we don't do it all," said Hopkins.

It didn't make sEnce to Fisher why the Trinidad's were so insistent on not rewrapping the hand because obviously they knew the rules. They have been in enough of these big fights to know that a representative from the other camp is allowed to be in the room while they are wrapping Tito's hand. Even if the New York Commission's Representative didn't know any better, the Trinidads definitely did. The Trinidads went so far as to actually say, "If we have to rewrap Tito's hand then there will be no fight."

Why was this left hand wrapping so important to the Trinidads?
Finally, after the head commissioner became involved the Trinidads were told to either rewrap the left hand or the fight was off. After much argument, they finally agreed to rewrap the hand with a member from the Hopkins team present.


Tito was made to remove his glove and the prior wrapping in front of Hopkins representative Naazim Richardson who noticed that the wrap looked very thick and when he felt it he says it was as hard as a rock. All the sudden it became very clear why they had tried to get away with wrapping the left hand without anyone from the Hopkins camp watching and also why they didn't want to remove it and rewrap the hand.
Don Felix began to rewrap the hand again, but Richardson noticed that Don Felix was putting layers of tape and then gauze, tape and then gauze, tape and then gauze which is not in accordance with NYSAC rules. The rules stipulate tape cannot be applied directly over the knuckles, and that repeating the process several times (is not permitted).


In an interview with Bernard Fernandez of Philly.com, Hopkins said, "If you put on tape, then gauze, then tape, then gauze, it's like a [plaster] cast. It's like being hit with a baseball bat. I'm giving out some secrets here, but you can dip your hands in ice water and that tape will, like, marinate and become harder. But it's only cheating if you get caught. Personally, I think Vargas' and Reid's people dropped the ball. Naazim did a brilliant job in spotting what [Felix Trinidad Sr.] was doing with the wraps." Don Felix was also putting tape on the skin and over the knuckles, both of which are not in accordance with NYSAC rules. New York's head commissioner put his foot down and made Don Felix wrap in strict accordance to the rules.

Don Felix has insisted in several interviews that, "I have always wrapped Tito's hands this way and nobody else has ever said anythiNG"


PLEASE KEEP IN MIND


Tito Trinidad has moved up the boxing ranks by giving some of the best fighters in boxing a severe beating and some of them may never be the same after suffering the effects of that beating. Take for example, David Reid. In March of 2000 Reid, who was 14-0 and the WBA jr. middleweight champion of the world, stepped into the ring against Tito Trinidad. Reid had a good right hand and caught Tito with it in the 3rd round and sent him to the canvas. More importantly he was able to avoid Tito's left hook, but only until the 7th round. Tito knocked read down in the 7th and then 3 times in the 11th. Since that fight it has been apparent that Reid will never be the same fighter. He was literally ruined by one fight.
His next fight against Kirino Garcia (who had a record of 28-20-1) you could see the lasting effects of the Trinidad beating - this was supposed to be a confidence building fight for Reid. But instead, Reid was gun shy and tired badly down the stretch allowing Garcia to almost steal the fight; in fact, everyone in the audience felt Kirino Garcia won the fight even though the judges gave the decision to Reid. However, Reid knew he was not the same.

His next fight would be against Urbano Gurrola (who was 18-7) and it was more of the same. Gurrola withstood the right hands through the first 5 rounds and then Reid tired badly. It was as if Reid was a totally different fighter. You could see the panic in his face by the8th round as Gurrola started putting pressure on him. Again, Reid was given a decision that many felt he didn't deserve. The next fight against Maurice Brantley (23-3) was almost identical to the two prior fights. But if those three fights weren't enough proof, his next fight against Sam Hill (who was 13-2-1 and looked to be badly out of shape) confirmed everyone's suspicions. Reid would never be the same fighter - he was TKO'ed in the 9th round by Sam Hill on November 11, 2001 and his career likely over for good. In just over a year's time it became crystal clear that the beating Tito Trinidad gave David Reid would last a lifetime.


Then you have the Fernando Vargas. If anyone heard the explosion that Tito's left hook made when it connected to Vargas' chin in the first round of their fight, you have to ask yourself "what did he just get hit with." Even Fernardo Vargas said, "I had never been hit with a punch like that. I can remember thinking, who is this guy Mike Tyson." After going back and watching the tape of the Vargas vs Trinidad fight, I noticed that even Jim Lampley was saying, "look at how Vargas is responding even to Tito's jab." It was absolutely amazing. Tito's jab was almost knocking Vargas down and this is a fighter who had fought top quality opposition and had never been knocked down before. The exact same story with William Joppy.


However, once he was made to wrap his hands legally against Bernard Hopkins, the power was gone. At about 1:30 into the first round, Tito and Hopkins got tangled up and as Hopkins was pulling out, Tito was holding his arms down and he hit Hopkins with the exact same left hook that took Vargas down and Joppy out, yet Hopkins felt no ill effects. Again, in the 5th or 6th round as the bell rang to end the round, Tito threw a left hook after the bell rang and caught Hopkins square on his chin, yet Hopkins just looked at Tito like to say, "is that all you got."

You could see the look on Tito's face, he knew that the fight was over at that point. Even Hopkins told me in our interview, "once Tito hit me with his left hook and seen that he couldn't hurt me, the fight was over." It seems that the illegal hand wraps do indeed have an effect on Tito's power, just as Don Felix says.

The facts are, that if the wraps were illegal in New York and Don Felix maintains that he has always wrapped Tito's hands that way and that he is going to continue wrapping Tito's hands that way, then there needs to be an official investigation.

Ironically, in the very same building that Don Felix was caught wrapping Tito's hands illegally (Madison Square Garden), in 1983 a prospect named Billy Collins was badly and surprisingly beaten by an outsider named Luis Resto. At the end Collins's eyes were swollen shut, his mouth was badly bruised and his nose broken. Afterwards his trainer-father shook hands with Resto and felt no padding in the gloves. The very same New York commission discovered.


I like to look over certain's fighter's ENTIRE career before I Rate them. Cuerves, Duran, and Trinidad have always been My favoriites. After carefull ****ysis, I have to ask myself "Was Trinidad' Power on Par with the guys TRULY"

YOU BE THE JUDGE!
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Old 01-14-2009, 08:34 PM   #2
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Default Re: How should we rate Felix Trinidad when Compared to Roberto Duran & Pipo cuerves?

Also keep in Mind, there was bit of a delay for the fighters to come out. When asked after the fight about what caused the delay, Bouie Fisher Reponded with this quote to a reporter after Hopkins won,

Bouie Fischer:

" I tell you, Ike. They have been getting away with that for a long time. I sent my people to Trinidad's locker room to make sure everything was right. When they got there they came back to me and toldme that Trinidad's left hand was wrapped before they got there. So, I had to go over to his dressing room myself, this is my business and I have been doing it for over 50 years. When I got there I told them to unwrap the hand and do it over because we need to see the hand being wrapped. They refused to unwrap the hands so I told them I guess the fight will not happen then, we can reschedule to another date. The officials came in and said we don't have time to do this over. I told them, well we must do this right or no fight. They know the rules, no tape on the skin or tape on the ankle. His left hand was heavy just like your camera. Guess what, the officials then said, " you can go and wrap Bernard hands anyway you want." Trinidad's father and his people didn't want to make the change because they knew they cheated. I wasn't going for that, we have to do this right, they raised hell like you couldn't believe. I said you can do it your way, but there will be no fight if you don't do it right. They said we are going to leave it as it is, so I told them we can reschedule the fight untill next week. They didn't want to do that. This is why we had a delay coming out. When they saw Bernard they tried to ask us to take off just a little tape, but they had a half roll of tape on Trinidad's left hand. This is why people say he has a good left hook. David Reid paid a big price, Trinidad took away the fighter in him. David Reids people were trying to schedule a fight with Bernard and it could have happened if Reid would have won his last fight.
I'm glad it never happened. "

-Bouie Fisher
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Old 01-14-2009, 10:16 PM   #3
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Default Re: How should we rate Felix Trinidad when Compared to Roberto Duran & Pipo cuerves?

Reid, Vargas & Joppy all said: "I have never been hit like that before".

Gotta wonder about the Campos & Delahoya fights too.
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Old 01-15-2009, 12:00 AM   #4
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Default Re: How should we rate Felix Trinidad when Compared to Roberto Duran & Pipo cuerves?

Yeah, Once the scanadal broke out with Hopkins I started to look into this guy and see what was going on with his taping. If you actually put the research into it, you would be surprised what else i found out about this. It seems that Hasim Rahman was the first one to notice the illegal tape wrap back before the fight with Fernando Vargas. Rahman went to shake hand with both fighters in there dressing room. He noticed that Trinidad was being heavily taped up to make his hands like cement blocks. It is a shame cause i was a fan of the guy. But i do not like This Panama Lewis type of behavior. I think his father should be banned from Boxing. It just does not seem right.
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:23 AM   #5
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Default Re: How should we rate Felix Trinidad when Compared to Roberto Duran & Pipo cuerves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longhhorn71 View Post
Reid, Vargas & Joppy all said: "I have never been hit like that before".

Gotta wonder about the Campos & Delahoya fights too.
It's a damn shame.


When i saw the Vargas fight and i saw what Tito's jab was doing, i knew something was not right.
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:27 AM   #6
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Default Re: How should we rate Felix Trinidad when Compared to Roberto Duran & Pipo cuerves?

Having met Tito before around 1998-ish, the dudes handshake is extremely strong. I'm sure the wraps helped...but Tito was a naturally strong man. I have no doubt a lot of his power was legit.
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Old 01-15-2009, 01:06 PM   #7
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Default Re: How should we rate Felix Trinidad when Compared to Roberto Duran & Pipo cuerves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arriba View Post
Having met Tito before around 1998-ish, the dudes handshake is extremely strong. I'm sure the wraps helped...but Tito was a naturally strong man. I have no doubt a lot of his power was legit.
I met floyd Mayweather, Ray leaonard, and some other feather fisted contenders in my day too. I shook hands with all. They all have strong hands.
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Old 01-15-2009, 01:20 PM   #8
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Default Re: How should we rate Felix Trinidad when Compared to Roberto Duran & Pipo cuerves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by $.02 View Post
I met floyd Mayweather, Ray leaonard, and some other feather fisted contenders in my day too. I shook hands with all. They all have strong hands.
Ray Leonard feather fisted?
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Old 01-15-2009, 02:02 PM   #9
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Default Re: How should we rate Felix Trinidad when Compared to Roberto Duran & Pipo cuerves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by natonic View Post
Ray Leonard feather fisted?
$.02 lost all credibility when he made that statement.
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Old 01-15-2009, 03:19 PM   #10
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Default Re: How should we rate Felix Trinidad when Compared to Roberto Duran & Pipo cuerves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by $.02 View Post
I met floyd Mayweather, Ray leaonard, and some other feather fisted contenders in my day too. I shook hands with all. They all have strong hands.
Does not compute.

Does not compute.
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Old 01-15-2009, 03:29 PM   #11
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Default Re: How should we rate Felix Trinidad when Compared to Roberto Duran & Pipo cuerves?

please kill yourself
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Old 01-15-2009, 03:55 PM   #12
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Default Re: How should we rate Felix Trinidad when Compared to Roberto Duran & Pipo cuerves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by $.02 View Post
I met floyd Mayweather, Ray leaonard, and some other feather fisted contenders in my day too. I shook hands with all. They all have strong hands.
Ray Leonard a feather fist?

Go play in traffic.
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Old 01-15-2009, 03:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: How should we rate Felix Trinidad when Compared to Roberto Duran & Pipo cuerves?

BTW - the Tito handwrap conspiracy is bull****. Even after the Hopkins fight, when they started to monitor how Don Felix wrapped Tito's hands, Felix still displayed his power.

Trinidad was just a natural puncher. That is all. Vargas, and Joppy had never been hit like that before simply because there wasnt a puncher at that time, or since at 147-154 with the power of Tito.
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Old 01-15-2009, 04:05 PM   #14
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Default Re: How should we rate Felix Trinidad when Compared to Roberto Duran & Pipo cuerves?

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Ray Leonard feather fisted?
I wouldn't say he was feather fisted but by no means was he a knockout puncher.
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Old 01-15-2009, 04:22 PM   #15
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Default Re: How should we rate Felix Trinidad when Compared to Roberto Duran & Pipo cuerves?

Check the Ranzany, Finch, Price fights. Throw in Lalonde too. He stopped 25 of his 36 opponents (wins). He turned the first hearns fight with his power. He stopped Benitez. He stopped Duran (sorry, Duran took the easy out, but it was headed that way). Punching power wasn't his calling card because he had other attributes, but he's one of the sharpest punchers ever at 147.
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