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Old 02-12-2013, 01:14 PM   #106
Bokaj
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Default Re: Ray Leonard: Best Fighter of the 80's?

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Originally Posted by AlFrancis View Post
I mentioned it in my original post, what about the contenders he fought on his way up the ladder?
Yeah, he had a good run to the title as well. There really isn't any realistic standard that Leonard's choices of fights doesn't look splendid when held up to.

On another thread, someone posted a run down of the ranked fighters Duran faced at LW compared to the ones Leonard faced at WW, and Leonard actually had more despite having about half the fights. Can't vouch for it being correct, though, but clearly there was very little padding on Leonard's record.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:17 PM   #107
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Default Re: Ray Leonard: Best Fighter of the 80's?

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I think it is. To call a WW who's only had one fight in 5 years calling out a dominant MW champion a "cherrypicker" only because the champion has slipped a bit is quite terrible by any standard. You should call him the only fighter in boxing history to do a thing like that, no matter pulling it off.
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I've actually heard posters on the Classic Forum suggest Hagler was more faded than Leonard by 1987 because he had been active, which apparently took a lot out of him.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:21 PM   #108
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Default Re: Ray Leonard: Best Fighter of the 80's?

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Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
I think it is. To call a WW who's only had one fight in 5 years calling out a dominant MW champion a "cherrypicker" only because the champion has slipped a bit is quite terrible by any standard. You should call him the only fighter in boxing history to do a thing like that, no matter pulling it off.

Same with a 32-year old Leonard calling out younger LHW beltholder. Yes, it had been more even impressive if not for the catch-weight, and Lalonde definitely wasn't a great fighter by any means, but taking on someone younger who is that much bigger is always a challenge.

And the only thing you have to say about the fact that he faced Benitez, Duranx2, Kalule and Hearns within a time-frame of two years, is that he didn't face Pryor as well.

That's really taking the "half empty" logic to absurd heights.


he did wait until hagler was past his best that is surely a fact.

I would of been more impressed if he had beaten lalonde with no catchweight and as I posted earlier I think leonard would still of beaten him so there being a catchweight for me does detract from that victory .

the use of pryor was only that pryor would of looked better on his record than finch or bonds which is surely a fact . so if you think that is terrible then that's up to you
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:46 PM   #109
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Default Re: Ray Leonard: Best Fighter of the 80's?

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he did wait until hagler was past his best that is surely a fact.
Only in Hagler's fanboys minds. To believe that Leonard slyly bid his time snorting coke and drinking booze waiting for Hagler to decline is absolutely insane.

If he'd actually waited Hagler out wouldn't it been reasonable to have actual fights to keep sharp instead of snorting and partying all the time?

(And no, Leonard didn't say himself that he waited Hagler out. He actually said he didn't, as I quoted earlier in this thread)

What is fact is that he took on a challenge no one before or after has tried, and passed it. Not once have I seen you give him credit for this, instead you persist with this tinfoil hat theory of yours. That's kind of pathetic.

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I would of been more impressed if he had beaten lalonde with no catchweight and as I posted earlier I think leonard would still of beaten him so there being a catchweight for me does detract from that victory .

the use of pryor was only that pryor would of looked better on his record than finch or bonds which is surely a fact . so if you think that is terrible then that's up to you
As I said this is an absurd version of the half empty glass: He takes on Benitez, Duranx2 and Hearns within two years, as well as throwing in a venture up to 154 to face Kalule in the bargain. That's about as impressive run as you're going to get, but every run can be made more impressive.

It is a fact that Armstrongs feat of holding 3 titles simultaneously would have been even more impressive had he added a forth. That Tyson's rampage through the HW division in the late 80's would have been even more imprssive had he added Dokes and Witherspoon is also a fact. But they are quite useless facts.

I think the points you've made here are absolutely idiotic, and now I'm done wasting time on them.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:46 PM   #110
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Default Re: Ray Leonard: Best Fighter of the 80's?

I did this list a few years ago and certainly the top 20 or so still reflect my opinion.

Top 101 of the 1980s

101 Herol Graham
100 Miguel Lora
99 Michael Moorer
98 Hilmer Kenty
97 Rolando Navarrete
96 Yong Kang Kim
95 Gabby Canizales
94 Fulgencio Obelmejias
93 Bobby Czyz
92 Frank Tate
91 Matthew Hilton
90 Sean O'Grady
89 Terry Marsh
88 Greg Haugen
87 Duke McKenzie
86 Jorge Paez
85 Wilfred Gomez
84 Maurice Hope
83 Elly Pical
82 Saoul Mamby
81 John Mugabi
80 Eddie Mustafa Muhammad
79 Milton McCrory
78 Cornelius Boza-Edwards
77 Rafael Limon
76 Sam Serrano
75 Dave McAuley
74 Livingstone Bramble
73 Dennis Andries
72 Juan Martin Coggi
71 Sung Il Moon
70 Tony Tucker
69 Marvin Johnson
68 Gianfranco Rosi
67 Jim Watt
66 Bobby Chacon
65 Jiro Watanabe
64 Fidel Bassa
63 Seung Hoon Lee
62 Alan Minter
61 Ray Mancini
60 Dodie Penalosa
59 Juan LaPorte
58 Simon Brown
57 Ayub Kalule
56 Iran Barkley
55 Chong Pal Park
54 Carlos Deleon
53 Rocky Lockbridge
52 Barry McGuigan
51 Mark Breland
50 Charles Williams
49 Sambu Kalambay
48 Humberto Gonzales
47 Julian Jackson
46 Lloyd Honeyghan
45 Raul Perez
44 Jose Luis Ramirez
43 James McGirt
42 Tim Whitherspoon
41 Marlon Starling
40 Hilario Zapata
39 Orlando Canizales
38 Virgil Hill
37 Roger Mayweather
36 Edwin Rosario
35 Daniel Zaragoza
34 Wilfred Benitez
33 Antonio Esparragoza
32 Mathew Saad Muhammad
31 Santos Laciar
30 Meldrick Taylor
29 Dwight Muhammad Qawi
28 Gilberto Roman
27 Don Curry
26 Brian Mitchell
25 Alexis Arguello
24 Hector Camacho
23 Lupe Pintor
22 Sot Chitalada
21 Michael Nunn
20 Jeff Fenech
19 Myung Woo Yuh
18 Jung Koo Chang
17 Mike McCallum
16 Evander Holyfield
15 Pernell Whitaker
14 Jeff Chandler
13 Khoasio Galaxy
12 Salvador Sanchez
11 Azumah Nelson
10 Roberto Duran
9 Aaron Pryor
8 Eusebio Pedroza
7 Julio Cesar Chavez
6 Larry Holmes
5 Michael Spinks
4 Tommy Hearns
3 Mike Tyson
2 Marvin Hagler
1 Ray Leonard
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:53 PM   #111
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Default Re: Ray Leonard: Best Fighter of the 80's?

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I've actually heard posters on the Classic Forum suggest Hagler was more faded than Leonard by 1987 because he had been active, which apparently took a lot out of him.
There is literally no other topic that turns people's brains as this one on here.

Leonard has a retina operation and then decides to retire. Parties for a year or so then makes an unimpressive comeback. Then does drugs and booze for another couple of years before calling Hagler out. Most thinks he's nuts and will be seriously hurt. But the conclusion of Hagler fanboys 25 years later: That was the only way he could have waited Hagler out enough to win.

Any pro or trainer would say that having actual fights, especially at the weight you're going to fight your guy at, is 10 times the preparation than sitting on your ass getting wasted, but these Internet bad boys fortunately know better.

Last edited by Bokaj; 02-12-2013 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:55 PM   #112
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Default Re: Ray Leonard: Best Fighter of the 80's?

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Originally Posted by AlFrancis View Post
Yes, alright then we'll forget about Hearns 2. What about all the other fights I mentioned including his pre championship days.
Like I said, I've just got an issue with the comment by boxing fan Phil about him not wanting to take on "anyone he considers a risk.
I'm not a Leonard nut hugger by the way. I went for Chavez as my no1 for the 80's.
I shouldn't have too much of an issue with what I've said - it's only an opinion, and just my opinion at that.

There's no doubt that you can't talk about who was the greatest fighter of the 1980s without talking about SRL. That speaks volumes in itself.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:59 PM   #113
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Default Re: Ray Leonard: Best Fighter of the 80's?

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Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
There is literally no other topic that turns people's brains as this one on here.

Leonard has a retina operation and then decides to retire. Parties for a year or so then makes an unimpressive comeback. Then does drugs and booze for another couple of years before calling Hagler out. Most thinks he's nut and will be seriously hurt. But the conclusion of Hagler fanboys 25 years later: That was the only way he could have waited Hagler out enough to win.

Any pro or trainer would say that having actual fights, especially at the weight you're going to figh your guy, is 10 times the preparation than sitting on your ass getting wasted, but these Internet bad boys fortunately know better.
Ray does get shit on in here. Let's be honest.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:11 PM   #114
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Default Re: Ray Leonard: Best Fighter of the 80's?

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Originally Posted by BoxingFanPhil View Post
I shouldn't have too much of an issue with what I've said - it's only an opinion, and just my opinion at that.

There's no doubt that you can't talk about who was the greatest fighter of the 1980s without talking about SRL. That speaks volumes in itself.
Fair enough!
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:14 PM   #115
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Default Re: Ray Leonard: Best Fighter of the 80's?

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Ray does get shit on in here. Let's be honest.
Actually more than Ali. And that's quite strange. Ali was a divisive figure and seems to still get under the skin of conservative Americans. He's also an unprecedented media figure and is often held up as the greatest fighter ever, or even the greatest sportsman ever, by those who don't know much about boxing.

And in truth he said some horribly racist things, belonged to an extremist cult and could often be degrading towards his opponents.

Leonard? He was media friendly and beat Duran and Hagler, actually embarrassed both. That's the sum of his sins and still he's hated like no other fighter on here.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:17 PM   #116
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Default Re: Ray Leonard: Best Fighter of the 80's?

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Not sure how people can talk about Tyson being the best of the 80s when his resume is one of the least impressive when looking at past HW champions. Tyson became huge because he was a beast and the media were drawn to him - so don't confuse biggest media star of boxing to the best. As soon as the fear factor went Tyson never came back again.
This is lazy analysis, neglectful to the point of being deliberately misleading.

Tyson unified the division at an early age. What more could he do? He wasn't great because he was a beast, he was a perfectionist. He was insanely fast with his hands, he studied technique, his head movement was superior, he was aggressive, he hit hard but with deadly accuracy - short chopping punches that came in immaculate combinations.

The media were dazzled by him. The thought of him being defeated became laughable. He was unsinkable like the titanic.

His mentality was always his greatest weakness. He beat himself, he unravelled, and with the media whirlwind around him between celebrity marriage, divorce and conviction, his skills went into premature and rapid decline.

Tyson wasn't some phantom beast that eventually people learned not to be scared of - he was a phenomenon that peaked early and lost it before his time.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:24 PM   #117
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Default Re: Ray Leonard: Best Fighter of the 80's?

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Originally Posted by BoxingFanPhil View Post
This is lazy analysis, neglectful to the point of being deliberately misleading.

Tyson unified the division at an early age. What more could he do? He wasn't great because he was a beast, he was a perfectionist. He was insanely fast with his hands, he studied technique, his head movement was superior, he was aggressive, he hit hard but with deadly accuracy - short chopping punches that came in immaculate combinations.

The media were dazzled by him. The thought of him being defeated became laughable. He was unsinkable like the titanic.

His mentality was always his greatest weakness. He beat himself, he unravelled, and with the media whirlwind around him between celebrity marriage, divorce and conviction, his skills went into premature and rapid decline.

Tyson wasn't some phantom beast that eventually people learned not to be scared of - he was a phenomenon that peaked early and lost it before his time.
People who don't remember him in his day don't realize the impact he made on the heavyweight division and at such a young age. He was simply crushing good heavyweights.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:33 PM   #118
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Default Re: Ray Leonard: Best Fighter of the 80's?

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Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
Only in Hagler's fanboys minds. To believe that Leonard slyly bid his time snorting coke and drinking booze waiting for Hagler to decline is absolutely insane.

If he'd actually waited Hagler out wouldn't it been reasonable to have actual fights to keep sharp instead of snorting and partying all the time?

(And no, Leonard didn't say himself that he waited Hagler out. He actually said he didn't, as I quoted earlier in this thread)

What is fact is that he took on a challenge no one before or after has tried, and passed it. Not once have I seen you give him credit for this, instead you persist with this tinfoil hat theory of yours. That's kind of pathetic.



As I said this is an absurd version of the half empty glass: He takes on Benitez, Duranx2 and Hearns within two years, as well as throwing in a venture up to 154 to face Kalule in the bargain. That's about as impressive run as you're going to get, but every run can be made more impressive.

It is a fact that Armstrongs feat of holding 3 titles simultaneously would have been even more impressive had he added a forth. That Tyson's rampage through the HW division in the late 80's would have been even more imprssive had he added Dokes and Witherspoon is also a fact. But they are quite useless facts.

I think the points you've made here are absolutely idiotic, and now I'm done wasting time on them.
That's fine we are all allowed our views no matter how others feel about them . But your exaggeration at the top of this quote is funny . And as quite a few others on various threads that I have read I feel that hagler beat leonard but do I think hagler won it by a long enough margin to call it a robbery no I don't but I do think hagler won
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:45 PM   #119
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Default Re: Ray Leonard: Best Fighter of the 80's?

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Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
There is literally no other topic that turns people's brains as this one on here.

Leonard has a retina operation and then decides to retire. Parties for a year or so then makes an unimpressive comeback. Then does drugs and booze for another couple of years before calling Hagler out. Most thinks he's nuts and will be seriously hurt. But the conclusion of Hagler fanboys 25 years later: That was the only way he could have waited Hagler out enough to win.

Any pro or trainer would say that having actual fights, especially at the weight you're going to fight your guy at, is 10 times the preparation than sitting on your ass getting wasted, but these Internet bad boys fortunately know better.
If you are implying I am an Internet bad boy that is really funny as I am not a bad boy on here or in person and am to old to want to be. also it is a bit obvious even to my dead dog that being active is better for any athlete than living the wrong sort of life style .

Last edited by Mr Butt; 02-12-2013 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:14 PM   #120
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Default Re: Ray Leonard: Best Fighter of the 80's?

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That's fine we are all allowed our views no matter how others feel about them . But your exaggeration at the top of this quote is funny . And as quite a few others on various threads that I have read I feel that hagler beat leonard but do I think hagler won it by a long enough margin to call it a robbery no I don't but I do think hagler won
I was waiting for somebody to post their view on who won the Hagler Leonard fight. You've started something now.
For the record I thought Leonard won, that was watching it live on closed circuit.
I have been meaning to watch it again since but haven't got round to it. I was quite surprised the next day in the news how many people thought Hagler won. At the time I thought Ray had pissed it but I've got to admit, it was very pro Leonard in there and everyone was pissed up.
I will watch it again and post an honest opinion. Maybe I was one of those caught up in what McIlvanney called Ray's illusion.
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