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Old 02-15-2013, 08:30 PM   #46
Zakman
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Default Re: Vladimir Klitschko, Top Ten Worthy?

Nope, but I think he's making a case for being in the next tier.
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:38 PM   #47
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Default Re: Vladimir Klitschko, Top Ten Worthy?

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No, but you also can't give him a high rating based on nothing but assumptions either. The 5 best fighters Wlad has fought were Byrd, Haye, Sanders, Brewster and Chagaev. Two of those two, who were by no means elite, beat Wlad. The best fighter Wlad has ever beaten, Chris Byrd, would rank outside of a top 50 all-time list.

You mentioned Louis and Holmes in your post, and others will mention Tyson, but their opposition was far superior to Wlad's. Louis fought Max Schmeling, Max Baer and Joe Walcott, Larry Holmes fought Ken Norton, Ray Mercer and Tim Witherspoon. Mike Tyson fought Andrew Golota, Razor Ruddock and Michael Spinks.

In terms of heavyweight greatness, with fighters like Ali, Foreman, Johnson, Lewis etc., you can certainly argue that Louis, Holmes and Tyson fought weaker opposition. However, they still fought good fighters. They still beat guys who would easily be ranked over Chris Byrd, Wlad's highest ranking win.

The era of Wlad's dominance is an unprecedented low. He does not compare to other weak eras, simply because they were also weak. They were weak in comparison to strong eras of the heavyweight division, such as the 70s or the 90s, whereas the 'Wlad era' is weak in comparison to the 'Louis or Holmes era'.

Not only that, but Wlad hasn't fought the best around either. Had he faced Povetkin, Adamek, Arreola, Solis, Valuev, Sanders in a rematch etc., Wlad's legacy would be greater than it is. As it happens, Wlad has shared dominance over this era and there are other noteworthy names out there who he should have fought.
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:08 PM   #48
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Default Re: Vladimir Klitschko, Top Ten Worthy?

By the time it's said and done, I think he'll have a better career than Holmes did and that's the ATG his career accomplishments mirror the closest. So, if you rate Holmes very highly, Wlad should be right there.
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:14 PM   #49
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Default Re: Vladimir Klitschko, Top Ten Worthy?

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By the time it's said and done, I think he'll have a better career than Holmes did and that's the ATG his career accomplishments mirror the closest. So, if you rate Holmes very highly, Wlad should be right there.
Holmes was undefeated until his late thirties and had beaten a future HOF heavyweight by the time he lost, and was defeated by a p4p great when it did happen. And he arguably deserved a win over the same man in a rematch. If you're doing no more than comparing reign-lengths, that's one thing, but I don't view them particularly closely at all as greats. You can say you thought Witherspoon took a narrow one over him but when you compare that to definitive losses against Puritty, Sanders and Brewster, this just shouldn't be considered even similar, in my opinion. I mean, I'm not trying to be confrontational about it, I'm just saying for me I can't reconcile that. But I've always rated Holmes very highly.
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:49 PM   #50
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Default Re: Vladimir Klitschko, Top Ten Worthy?

He's already around #10-12 and after his bro retires and he goes on to dominate by himself, he could eventually crack the top 5.
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:55 PM   #51
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Default Re: Vladimir Klitschko, Top Ten Worthy?

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Originally Posted by Boxed Ears View Post
Holmes was undefeated until his late thirties and had beaten a future HOF heavyweight by the time he lost, and was defeated by a p4p great when it did happen. And he arguably deserved a win over the same man in a rematch. If you're doing no more than comparing reign-lengths, that's one thing, but I don't view them particularly closely at all as greats. You can say you thought Witherspoon took a narrow one over him but when you compare that to Puritty, Sanders and Brewster, this just shouldn't be considered even similar, in my opinion.
It's give and take. Can't just take the highlights from one and the lowlights from the other BE, you know better.

Wlad's cons:
- hasn't beaten a HOF heavyweight
- KO'd 3 times on the way up by fighters he should've beaten.
- hasn't faced the #2 heavyweight

Holmes cons:
- never unified
- dropped a belt rather than face his #1 contender so he could fight Marvis Frazier
- never rematched his toughest opponents

Also, that p4p great was a cherry picked fight, although people don't like to admit it. Spinks was brought up to fight for the title in his very first fight at the weight so Holmes could match Marciano's record. He lost his title to a LHW moving up in his first fight. As good as Spinks was at LHW, that's not something that should be brought up as any sort of positive for Holmes.

Wlad's pros:
- has unified
- 20-2 against fighters who were ranked in the Ring top 10 at some point in their careers
- reign longevity - 7 years
- currently on a 9 year unbeaten streak after having his career essentially written off.

Holmes pros:

- has the bigger wins on the top end
- he didn't officially lose until late in his career. only really got blown out once.
- has longevity on his reign as well - 7 years
- 22-5 against fighters who were ranked in the Ring top 10 at some point
- dominated Butterbean
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:55 PM   #52
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Default Re: Vladimir Klitschko, Top Ten Worthy?

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The 5 best fighters Wlad has fought were Byrd, Haye, Sanders, Brewster and Chagaev. Two of those two, who were by no means elite, beat Wlad.
.
I think Sam Peter was better and more accomplished than Sanders. And I think when its all said and done, Wlad will add 1 or 2 more to his "top five". It'll probably end up being Byrd, Chagaev, Haye/Peter (interchangeable) and a couple of these new guys coming up.

Lastly, I could give a **** if Wlad has lost. He's done PLENTY to usurp those loses that were almost a decade ago. As a linear, unified CHAMPION (not just a mere titlist, who are all too common these days), Wlad has been utterly DOMINANT.
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:01 PM   #53
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Default Re: Vladimir Klitschko, Top Ten Worthy?

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Top 30ish. Not top 10.

He has had longevity now sure. But who has he beaten?

Best wins Chris Byrd,Sam Peter (1) and David Haye. OK fine.
Wow, that's off the charts.

Seriously?

I'm a big fan of Wlad's and I have him just barely inside the Top 10 Heavys of all time. He can move up with more defenses & especially if he can KO some more undefeated or not previously KO'd fighters. That's the bar I've set myself.

Also, if & when Vitali retires and Wlad gets that last WBC belt for full & total unification. That'd be my criteria anyway.
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:02 PM   #54
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Default Re: Vladimir Klitschko, Top Ten Worthy?

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No because he cherry picks his fights. You don't become a ATG by fighting undersized club fighters.

Larry Holmes did and is loved on ESB, why not vlad
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:03 PM   #55
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Default Re: Vladimir Klitschko, Top Ten Worthy?

Oh, and the threadstarter said Wlad didn't hold the WBA but he does, or did they strip him and I missed it? Last I heard Wlad is the WBA Super Championb whatever that's supposed to mean.

Povetkin is a manufactured champion who won't fight Wlad.
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:05 PM   #56
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Default Re: Vladimir Klitschko, Top Ten Worthy?

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No because he cherry picks his fights. You don't become a ATG by fighting undersized club fighters.
It worked for Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson, Jack Johnson, Rocky Marciano, Jack Dempsey, etc. They all fought in supposedly weak eras and fought fighters that were past their prime or cherry picked their opponents.
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:10 PM   #57
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Default Re: Vladimir Klitschko, Top Ten Worthy?

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It's give and take. Can't just take the highlights from one and the lowlights from the other BE, you know better.

Oh, I'm not trying to at all. I think I've been one of the most impartial guys with regard to Volo that you will find on this forum. I'm simply saying those things are very, very important distinctions between their careers.


Wlad's cons:
- hasn't beaten a HOF heavyweight
- KO'd 3 times on the way up by fighters he should've beaten.
- hasn't faced the #2 heavyweight

Has never even fought a great fighter of any size or age ever is a problem to me, more than where they were ranked or if I can see them in the HOF.
Even arguing Holmes never defeated anyone great while they were great (Norton is pretty arguable, I think), he did fight them later and did perform very, very well when he did, well past his best against the likes of Spinks and Holyfield.

Holmes cons:
- never unified
- dropped a belt rather than face his #1 contender so he could fight Marvis Frazier
- never rematched his toughest opponents

Holmes never unified, it's true, but he was clearly the premier heavyweight in the world throughout Norton to Witherspoon at the very least and arguably from Norton to Spinks II. And no one in that time was standing out as the obvious guy he needed to fight to prove best because he'd either beaten them or they didn't stay regarded that highly that long.


Also, that p4p great was a cherry picked fight, although people don't like to admit it. Spinks was brought up to fight for the title in his very first fight at the weight so Holmes could match Marciano's record. He lost his title to a LHW moving up in his first fight. As good as Spinks was at LHW, that's not something that should be brought up as any sort of positive for Holmes.

Everything looks different in retrospect but I wasn't addressing anything other than that when Holmes finally lost it was to a genuine ATG and even if it was supposed to be his fight to lose, we must look at the fact that in Holmes losing Spinks solidified that he'd become the top heavyweight in the world and retroactively whether anyone likes it or not Spinks' quality at heavyweight proven and Holmes' age make this very, very, very differently and correctly regarded as a better loss to have suffered than any of Klitschko's, in my opinion. Some slightly better wins but a far better and more "excusable" losses list.



Wlad's pros:
- has unified
- 20-2 against fighters who were ranked in the Ring top 10 at some point in their careers
- reign longevity - 7 years
- currently on a 9 year unbeaten streak after having his career essentially written off.

No one will argue that Klitschko's reign is in the neighbourhood of Holmes, from my end. As far as unbeaten streaks, from win to win, Holmes' went 12 years. Klitschko is currently at 8. I only do win-to-win unbeaten streaks. Otherwise, you're counting when Vitali was out, Dempsey was out, Willard was out, etc. It doesn't work well. Holmes didn't unify and that will always be one that Klitschko will keep over him in a big way. But he did hold "the" title for several years, regardless of ABC pick and choosing.


Holmes pros:

- has the bigger wins on the top end
- he didn't officially lose until late in his career. only really got blown out once.
- has longevity on his reign as well - 7 years
- 22-5 against fighters who were ranked in the Ring top 10 at some point
- dominated Butterbean

Yes, the Butterbean win should've been listed first, really. That's what pushed him to the upper echelon for me, my man. And scoring the Nielsen fight unofficially for him. Sort of an Ali/Foreman level thing. But, for longevity, one has to consider things like the Mercer match, really. He had outstanding longevity when so obviously past his best.

Replies inserted in green, because I didn't want to break everything up. Too time consuming. That's my side of it, anyway.
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:28 PM   #58
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Default Re: Vladimir Klitschko, Top Ten Worthy?

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Originally Posted by Boxed Ears View Post
Replies inserted in green, because I didn't want to break everything up. Too time consuming. That's my side of it, anyway.

[GV]Holmes never unified, it's true, but he was clearly the premier heavyweight in the world throughout Norton to Witherspoon at the very least and arguably from Norton to Spinks II. And no one in that time was standing out as the obvious guy he needed to fight to prove best because he'd either beaten them or they didn't stay regarded that highly that long. [/GV]


Holmes had a pretty large window of opportunity for some big $$$money fights with Tate, Thomas,Coetzee, Weaver, Dokes,Page(who he gave up a title to fight, while the top dogs picked each other off. I remember it clearly and laugh at all the revisionist who see it differently. Homes was carefully navigated and it is a shame because I THINK HE HAD THE TALENT TO beat most of these guys but I think his team was smart because he would have picked up a few loses along the way. Shame was they thought they had an easy fight against Michael Spinks because Mike never fought as heavyweight and he lost, Holmes also never rematched Norton, Witherspoon or Williams and they were all beatable, big difference with guys like Louis and Marciano and Ali, who always took the tougher fights, even Joe Frazier could have avoided Foreman for sometime, who did Foreman beat
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:02 PM   #59
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Default Re: Vladimir Klitschko, Top Ten Worthy?

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I'm personally open-minded about all this. Have at it.


Of course you can't criticize Wladimir, as it isn't his fault, but it's a weak era nonetheless.

Not true. Louis and Holmes fought better opponents than Wlad in my opinion. A guy like Tim Witherspoon would in all likelihood be a dominant contender today.

What? Of course you can, and you should. Getting stopped thrice against guys like Puritty, Brewster and Sanders should be held against you when ranking a boxer, just like I hold Louis' loss to Schmeling against him.

But, Louis was the champion. Wlad is not as he still hasn't unified the belts yet. Louis was the champ.

Not really, no. And that's a testament to how good he is, as there's some good boxers around today with solid to great amateur credentials.


I do agree with this point of view, though I can still see strong arguments for Frazier being made and I'd heavily favor Ali over Wladimir. Heavily.

For the record, Foreman was 217lbs, a stylistic nightmare for Frazier and one of the hardest punchers to ever lace up gloves.
Bit ironic as well seeing as Wlad was devastated by lesser boxers, yet in your point of view we can't hold it against him.

Same thing can be said for Wlad, who's never fought a guy in the same stratosphere as Ali. Wladimir's best win is Chris Byrd, Ali's is prime Foreman. The gulf in class is ridiculously large, and should be a prominent factor.


I don't consider it blasphemy, I just disagree with a lot of points you're making, but I'm reading with an open mind.

Sure, because he's a great boxer and has the class to do so. But would he beat Liston, Foreman, Frazier? Who's to say?

Not yet, for me. But he's closing in.
Pretty impressed by your response. good work, fella
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:21 AM   #60
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Default Re: Vladimir Klitschko, Top Ten Worthy?

Vitali has the highest KO percentage of any heavyweight in heavyweight boxing history and Vlad is not far behind. I love to watch them fight. They are the best fighters in the world and will beat any fighter in the world today in any weight division which makes them the best.................
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