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Old 06-23-2015, 10:41 AM   #1
straightcross
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Default What was the cause for Tyson to change so much?

I'm watching some of his early fights and he really seemed to enjoy it. You see him smiling when warming up in the dressing room, walking around dissapointed in the ring when he knocked his opponent out earlier because he expected a longer fight and when he knocked someone out he would always check on them if they were okay.

At some point that all changed and he just seemed really angry at the world, no longer smiling or enjoying it but seeing it as a job and no longer having any respect for his opponent. Guess it was around the point he started dating Robin Givens or maybe even before that
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Old 06-23-2015, 02:45 PM   #2
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Default Re: What was the cause for Tyson to change so much?

Jerry Izenburg said Tyson had been crying on his lap prior to the Douglas fight saying he couldn't take it anymore.

He said it was all fun at first, but once Cus and Jimmy died everything became about money, everyone was after the money.

Regarding Givens,i think he said if she had just asked him,he would have given her all the money she wanted.
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Old 06-24-2015, 11:29 AM   #3
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Default Re: What was the cause for Tyson to change so much?

The mindset and hunger of a person with no identity, fame, money, achievements and the mindset, hunger of a person who has made it, has all the women in the world drooling over him, $100m in the bank are totally different.

We haven't even talked about the unlimited leeches in the form of guys and girls who enter your life.
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Old 06-27-2015, 06:45 AM   #4
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Default Re: What was the cause for Tyson to change so much?

You seem to be referring to glimpses of a younger Mike Tyson on fight night. Sure he looked enthusiastic, but I would not go as far to say he was a contented person. This is the young man who after years of neglect and a rather meaningless criminal lifestyle was given a chance to be somebody. He went from being a poor, unknown thug, to world famous heavyweight champ within 7-8 years. This young Tyson was happy to show others his ring skills because he was getting tremendous praise and positive feedback.

The surly, volatile and dark brooding Tyson is the TRUE Tyson. Don’t forget the famous footage of Tyson breaking down at an amateur tournament with Teddy Atlas. Mike can be overheard saying “I’m Mike Tyson everybody likes me”. At that young age (probably 16-17) he knew that boxing was only a temporary tool for acceptance, he was trying to impress to Cus every time because Cus’s affection was dependent on him being a winner. This low self-esteem is still very obvious in his 2013 Autobiography “Undisputed Truth”. Tyson describes himself in very negative terms throughout – “a rat, a scumbag, a junkie” etc. Just look at his recent admission to lying about being sober. Tyson says “I’m negative, I’m dark, I want to do bad stuff, I want to hang out (points to his head) in this neighbourhood alone, its wants to kill everything, its wants to kills me too". I don’t think people just arrive at this dark place, it’s no act, it’s his true personality.

According to bio “The Mike Tyson story” Teddy Atlas mentions that Tyson’s handlers, Jacobs and Cayton had a major role. They really pushed this happy story, the “The kid and the old man” but brushed aside what was really going on. I recall a 1990’s Mike Tyson bio just before the Buster Douglas fight where he was smiling as people followed him around NYC saying hey champ and getting his autograph. He did look happy.

I would argue that the Tyson of 2015 is probably the most positive, if we can even say that, he has ever been. The depressive Mike Tyson needed boxing and Cus to supply him with the structure and love he never had. The only problem is that it’s not enough to sustain someone. Like many ultra-famous celebrities, their fame provides a distraction from their internal weaknesses and they never really have to face them. Furthermore like many celebrities they slowly learn that decades of drug abuse, lavish spending and boning random chicks isn’t really the key to long term happiness- it’s fun at first but gets old quickly.

If we look at Mike’s 2013 Autobiography “Undisputed Truth”, he describes being forever restless and unhappy, boxing only supplied positive feelings for so long, the entire time his inner monologue was tearing him to pieces. In the book Mike describes seeing a psychologist and only learning about why he felt certain things well after boxing. From just before the Lennox Lewis fight he was becoming a full blown drug addict in a desperate attempt to regulate his emotions and feel positive. Mike had learnt from the youngest age that he was worthless and sadly he seems to have believed that for a very long time regardless of his whirlwind lifestyle. Finally in 2015 we see a Mike who doesn’t need boxing, other people’s validation or copious amounts of drugs to feel good. He seems to have finally accepted himself and is at piece knowing it’s a struggle for him, instead of totally running from it.

Last edited by Rafaman; 06-27-2015 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 06-27-2015, 07:05 AM   #5
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Default Re: What was the cause for Tyson to change so much?

I have always being really intrigued by Mike Tyson. As a person he is in total opposite. He is self-loathing, depressive and wants to shy away from people, yet simultaneously he is a showman who craves attention and wants the spotlight. His broadway show is evidence of that. He is bragging whilst also being regretful of all his actions. There is also a good YouTube video of him talking about a mythical matchup with Ali. Mike is so macho but so humble as well. Mike describes himself as a determined ferocious fighter who was in a “total state of war”. But against Ali he says “There is no-one like him, everything that we have he supersedes us in, even our arrogance and ego”. Ali is “a F___ing animal, he looks more like a model than a fighter, but he is like a tyrannous with a pretty face. He’s mean and evil and he will take you into deep waters and drown you”. Tyson is almost crying after saying this and is talking in a light whisper, very emotional.

Last edited by Rafaman; 06-27-2015 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 06-29-2015, 11:56 PM   #6
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Default Re: What was the cause for Tyson to change so much?

I recently watched Lloyd Honeyghan vs Marlon Starling (first 4 rounds are an absolute barnburner btw). Tyson is ringside he was friends with Honeyghan and was supporting him. Around the 3-5 round mark, when Tyson has finished his cameo commentary there are a few panning shots of him. This was in 1989 a few months before the Douglas bout and he looks like a mental wreck. His eyes are pacing around, uncomfortable in his own skin. He looks wounded, angry and vulnerable but still looks like the meanest dude around. By this time he was world famous, HW champ, KOing guys left and right, so feared in the ring, he was a multi-millionaire and by his own admission was banging 3-4 girls a day. What can you complain about right? Well he had all that and still looked a sad, unhappy person.
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Old 06-30-2015, 12:12 AM   #7
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Default Re: What was the cause for Tyson to change so much?

These are effecting posts gentlemen, thank you.

You cannot by Peace & Mental Stability.

He can be seen on youtibe videos with Ali, a physical wreck trapped in his own body.
It is endearing how he rallies & cheers on Ali.

In one scene he laughs about how Ali beat him at chess, dancing around ahout "The Champs" cleverness.

An act of compassion. Ali had "checkmated" him with a diagonal move..

But the piece was a rook.
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Old 06-30-2015, 04:45 AM   #8
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Default Re: What was the cause for Tyson to change so much?

The man had a zest for life, a huge amount of energy to burn, and when someone like that is firing on all cylinders in life without a care in the world than everything seems to work out fine. But once the doubt starts to creep in, when you're snubbed by people you put your complete trust in, you feel threatened and to a certain point paranoid. That doubt will never leave you ever again. That's how back asswards this world is, where someone shows compassion and love but is looked upon as goofy and lame. Vulnerable.
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Old 06-30-2015, 07:03 AM   #9
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Default Re: What was the cause for Tyson to change so much?

I woukd like to debate several of the themes mentioned in your post Sangria. Your post seems to focus on a narrative -"the talented naive nice guy gets his spirt broken by the corrupt world". To suggest Mike Tyson is some type of victim is not telling the whole story.

1- Mike wasn't lame or goofy. Yes, he was teased for being overweight as a child and has that lisp. But once he had his first street fight and tasted being powerful he made sure to intimidate and violently beat up any of those bullies. In Brownsville he was called "big-head Mike" and was known for being super tough and a true criminal even at 12-13 years old. He knew all about violence and took what he wanted. No one would dare speak ill of him in fear of a beat down.

2 - Mike was a criminal. In his autobiography he mentions that not everyone in his poor neighbourhood was a criminal. The criminals were called thugs and hoods but to him they were his peers and he called the older guys only around 18-19 with stolen furs etc "money makers" and idolised to be one of them. My point is that he knew all about the darkers aspects of the world. Heck, he even embraced them. His identity at 13 years old was a street hardened thief. There are stories about him robbing old ladies in his tenament pretending to hold groceries, or robbing his neighbour when the theives even stole the baby food- Mike's mum accused him but fouund nothing because he stashed away everything on the roof. Is this the care free compassionate guy you speak of? He had no empathy and couldn't care who he hurt in the process. When he finally gets out of Tryon Boys home at 12-13 he goes to Cus's home, he is told that he will living with them- one of his first thoughts is "I can rob these white motherf---rs".

3. Mike has every opportunity to change. Why is no responsibility put on him? He grew up with Cus who was ultra conservative and paranoid - he would have heard many stories about crooked referees , boxing managers and promoters. Mike studied all those old 20's and 30's fight films he must have heard that so many of them ended completely destitute.

4. When Cus died he had no protector but it seems Jim Jacobs gave him structure to some extent but it is was defintely more business related. Despite all the stories about them being close Mike didn't even know when Jim had cancer, he was told that, on the day he died. Maybe they did that to protect him, I'm not sure. So then he has Cayton who is all about business and eventually they get into a dispute. Tyson leaves him but has to give him a piece of every fight after (some crazy deal). Thats a lot of learning experiences right there. But Tyson doesn't change, he goes towards even worse more snakes like Holloway and Horne and the master snakeoil saleman Don King. During this time he gets with Robin givens even when she arrives at their first date with her mother and is told they are a package deal (sounds kind of weird right?). So he goes to prison has lots of time to reflect becomes a Muslim but hasn't changed at all. He still goes back to Don King when everyone knew about King's dodgy past. Didn't matter. There is a story about Seth Abraham the once head of HBO going into the Ohio mansion on the day Tyson is released from prison. Tyson greets him at the door and tells him everyone is talking business upstairs. Mike couldn't even be bothered to join the meeting, he goes in the lounge room to watch the Xmen cartoon and is eating breakfast cereal. Also at some point the the group comes to him, he only tells everyone to get out as he wants to go to his bedroom and make love to his new wife Monica. Bernard Hopkins was once a Don King fighter and had to do so to get the Trinidad fight. Even then Nard was savy enough to hold him off and never let King get too attached. Tyson on the otherhand loved King, he fell hook line and sinker for all that my black brother , black vs white racial talk. As long as he had lots of access to women and could go on shopping sprees he was temporary happy. There are stories about $30,000 spending sprees at the Vegas Versace store. Tyson would close the whole store down, strip down to his underwear in the middle of the store and be fitted right then and there like some King.

Yes Tyson was a victim but a very willing one. He wanted to be courted during the process of being fleeced.

My apologies for the long post.
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Old 06-30-2015, 07:20 AM   #10
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Default Re: What was the cause for Tyson to change so much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangria View Post
The man had a zest for life, a huge amount of energy to burn, and when someone like that is firing on all cylinders in life without a care in the world than everything seems to work out fine. But once the doubt starts to creep in, when you're snubbed by people you put your complete trust in, you feel threatened and to a certain point paranoid. That doubt will never leave you ever again. That's how back asswards this world is, where someone shows compassion and love but is looked upon as goofy and lame. Vulnerable.
The world isn't backward at all. The whole idea is to get rich with doing as little as possible. We all do to some extent while at work- well they don't pay me enough to do that etc. But some take it to the extreme. For them it means getting close to those with talent and getting them to fund your lifestyle. Sure, its heartless and cruel but it has been going on since before Moses was a boy. The boxing industry is the number one suspect in that type of behaviour. The boxers are used like race horses and thrown out when they are done. The documentary "Champs" tells this very well. Tyson at one point had over 30 people in his entourage- talk about courting disaster no way you can keep track of that many people.
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Old 07-01-2015, 07:48 AM   #11
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Default Re: What was the cause for Tyson to change so much?

Takes a lot of discipline to go to training camp fight take a small break and go back to training camp again. When you become filthy rich and have unified the titles and beat everyone it even becomes harder to go to camp to prepare for guys who lost to guys you beat easily. It's pretty typical of even the most disciplined fighters like Lennox Lewis who lost to Rahman. Training becomes boring and monotonous. It does show how disciplined a fighter like Mayweather jr is, but he is motivated by the money not legacy which makes him different than most fighters of the past.
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Old 07-01-2015, 08:28 AM   #12
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Default Re: What was the cause for Tyson to change so much?

The level of competition changed and was changing. On the way up it was the youthful Tyson reflexes against the old guys going down the ladder. This is what happens time and time again in the sport and it's not often the old guy wins.

But the 84 crop turning pro when Tyson did was hardly formidable. So it wasn't as if Mike was in a position where he had to beat contemporaries to rise to the top of the heap.

88crop was better. And you had commander Vander from the 84 group moving up to heavy. That's a whole lot different risk than old Tubbs/ old Williams/old Smith/ and so on.

And just who holds those Tyson victims in all that high of esteem anyway?
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Old 07-01-2015, 05:06 PM   #13
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The level of competition changed and was changing. On the way up it was the youthful Tyson reflexes against the old guys going down the ladder. This is what happens time and time again in the sport and it's not often the old guy wins.

But the 84 crop turning pro when Tyson did was hardly formidable. So it wasn't as if Mike was in a position where he had to beat contemporaries to rise to the top of the heap.

88crop was better. And you had commander Vander from the 84 group moving up to heavy. That's a whole lot different risk than old Tubbs/ old Williams/old Smith/ and so on.

And just who holds those Tyson victims in all that high of esteem anyway?
Well Tony Tucker turned into a crack addict after his fight with Tyson, he fought Lewis years later and went the distance. The only other guy who fought both Tyson and Lewis and was never stopped was Holyfield.

Bruno went on to become world champion and gave Lewis one of his toughest fights.

Tubbs would go on to get robbed by Bowe.

Stewart went on to beat the **** out of Foreman, and gave a good account of himself vs Holyfield, so much that Holy gave him a rematch.

Biggs also went on to give a good account of himself against Bowe as did Thomas.

Jess Ferguson, the journeyman stopped by Tyson would go on to beat the oh so dangerous Mercer and ge beat Buster Douglas.

Same Douglas who beat Oliver Mcall years before he koed Lewis.

Lets not mention Holmes who fought Mcall, Holyfield and beat Mercer, giving a good account of himself despite his age.

Tyson destroyed a lot of his opposition and most of these guys went on to give good accounts of themselves vs the other greats of the era.
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Old 07-04-2015, 02:07 AM   #14
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Default Re: What was the cause for Tyson to change so much?

good description Azzer.

For all his personal flaws & deteriorated skills & motivations after prison...

Tyson was an ATG by any stadards at his peak.

That comination of power & speed itself was highly unusual.
His boxing & defensive skills were excellt.
As was his chin, & good endurance.
Great combinations.

No lack of heart then. A significant flaw in his lack of inside fighting.

But show me any HW ever who did not have flaws-& often much more significant.
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Old 07-04-2015, 12:16 PM   #15
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Default Re: What was the cause for Tyson to change so much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Entaowed View Post
good description Azzer.

For all his personal flaws & deteriorated skills & motivations after prison...

Tyson was an ATG by any stadards at his peak.

That comination of power & speed itself was highly unusual.
His boxing & defensive skills were excellt.
As was his chin, & good endurance.
Great combinations.

No lack of heart then. A significant flaw in his lack of inside fighting.

But show me any HW ever who did not have flaws-& often much more significant.
I've said as much, He fit a whole career into 3 half years, unified the titles under 8 months, youngest champ to do so, and last to do it in the ring, cleared out the division top to bottom, put in 9 defenses of his title, 2x champ, i can keep going, when you talk about tangible accomplishments there is no way he is outside of the top 10..I was a hater like the rest but i went back and watched his run from his debut up til prison and he was a great fighter and did everything you would want of a fighter.
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