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Old 06-22-2014, 11:02 PM   #1
SuzieQ49
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Default Is Jimmy Bivins run from 1943-1945 one of the best ever?

From 1943-1945

Bivins beat:

Ezzard Charles
Archie Moore
Lloyd Marshall
Joey Maxim
Mellio Bettina
Anton Christoforidis
Lee Q Murray 2x
Lee Savold
Bob Pastor 2x
Tami Mauriello
Pat Valentino
* A young Bivins also beat a Prime Charley Burley in 1940 at 160lb(very underrated win)

That is 4 hall of famers, 6 world champions, 9 world title challengers.

Bivins became duration light-heavyweight champion, duration heavyweight champion recognized by Ring Magazine, and rose to status of # 1 light-heavyweight contender, and # 1 heavyweight contender by Ring Magazine.




* A while back footage of Jimmy Bivins in 1943 vs Anton Christoforidis was on youtube. Jimmy looked like a completely different fighter than the one most fight fans see on youtube of the late 40s-early 50s Bivins. That 1943 version of Bivins on film looked like a GREAT fighter, super slick, fast, sharp, highly skillful, long reach, beautiful boxer.
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Old 06-23-2014, 03:17 AM   #2
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Default Re: Is Jimmy Bivins run from 1943-1945 one of the best ever?

I always thought Bivins is underrated because of his later losses. But that run was really amazing
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Old 06-23-2014, 03:20 AM   #3
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Default Re: Is Jimmy Bivins run from 1943-1945 one of the best ever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
From 1943-1945

Bivins beat:

Ezzard Charles
Archie Moore
Lloyd Marshall
Joey Maxim
Mellio Bettina
Anton Christoforidis
Lee Q Murray 2x
Lee Savold
Bob Pastor 2x
Tami Mauriello
Pat Valentino
* A young Bivins also beat a Prime Charley Burley in 1940 at 160lb(very underrated win)

That is 4 hall of famers, 6 world champions, 9 world title challengers.

Bivins became duration light-heavyweight champion, duration heavyweight champion recognized by Ring Magazine, and rose to status of # 1 light-heavyweight contender, and # 1 heavyweight contender by Ring Magazine.




* A while back footage of Jimmy Bivins in 1943 vs Anton Christoforidis was on youtube. Jimmy looked like a completely different fighter than the one most fight fans see on youtube of the late 40s-early 50s Bivins. That 1943 version of Bivins on film looked like a GREAT fighter, super slick, fast, sharp, highly skillful, long reach, beautiful boxer.
Very good run but let's not forget Charles weighed 165lbs to Bivins 175lbs
Moore 168.5 to Bivins 186lbs, Marshall 164.5 to Bivins 174.75lbs.
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Old 06-23-2014, 04:28 PM   #4
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Default Re: Is Jimmy Bivins run from 1943-1945 one of the best ever?

Great run!!!
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Old 06-23-2014, 04:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: Is Jimmy Bivins run from 1943-1945 one of the best ever?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Very good run but let's not forget Charles weighed 165lbs to Bivins 175lbs
Moore 168.5 to Bivins 186lbs, Marshall 164.5 to Bivins 174.75lbs.
Oooooh, but you said Bivins was nothing but a LHW when Moore fought him.
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Old 06-23-2014, 04:50 PM   #6
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Default Re: Is Jimmy Bivins run from 1943-1945 one of the best ever?

And yes, its one of the best runs ever. One of the most underrated.

From 43-45, Bivins was the best active fighter in the world from LHW-HW.
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Old 06-23-2014, 04:54 PM   #7
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Default Re: Is Jimmy Bivins run from 1943-1945 one of the best ever?

Yeah.
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Old 06-23-2014, 05:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: Is Jimmy Bivins run from 1943-1945 one of the best ever?

That is some run. Good lord.
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Old 06-23-2014, 05:18 PM   #9
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Default Re: Is Jimmy Bivins run from 1943-1945 one of the best ever?

For once a simple answer, "Yes"
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Old 06-23-2014, 06:29 PM   #10
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Default Re: Is Jimmy Bivins run from 1943-1945 one of the best ever?

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Originally Posted by The Mongoose View Post
Oooooh, but you said Bivins was nothing but a LHW when Moore fought him.
How many heavyweights are on Suzie's list? How is Bivins classified on Box rec ? Which weight division ?
At the age of 32 Bivins weighed 177lbs against Clarence Henry.
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Old 06-24-2014, 09:01 AM   #11
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Default Re: Is Jimmy Bivins run from 1943-1945 one of the best ever?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
How many heavyweights are on Suzie's list? How is Bivins classified on Box rec ? Which weight division ?
At the age of 32 Bivins weighed 177lbs against Clarence Henry.
For straters you just proposed Bivins size advantage was a factor in the win over Moore, and that size advantage was a HW weight.

1. 7 out of 11 opponents were HWs when Bivins fought them.

-Maxim 178, RING #10 HW

-Bettina 185 1/2 last rated as RING #4 HW

-Lee Murray 202 lbs RING #3 and #6 HW

-Lee Savold 195

-Bob Pastor 184,183 RING #3 HW

-Tami Mauriello 180, 187 RING #2 HW

-Pat Valentino 184


2. I don't care how boxrec classifies him. Hardly definitive.


3. 177 is still HW. He weighed 180, 186 in his next two fights. 179 and 182 in the previous two. Bivins weighed over 180 in 39 straight fights from 43-48. Peaking at 192 at the age of 27. He never weighed below the LHW limit after the AGE OF 23!

In the last 12 years of his career, Bivins only weighed below 180 5 times, the lowest being 177 against Henry. Nice try. Your argument holds no water. If a man hasn't made LHW since he was 23 years of age, and fought as a HW the final 12 years of his career, coming in as high 192 and as a low 177, and over 180 about 98% of the time. He is a Heavyweight.
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Old 06-24-2014, 09:19 AM   #12
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Default Re: Is Jimmy Bivins run from 1943-1945 one of the best ever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mongoose View Post
For straters you just proposed Bivins size advantage was a factor in the win over Moore, and that size advantage was a HW weight.

1. 7 out of 11 opponents were HWs when Bivins fought them.

-Maxim 178, RING #10 HW

-Bettina 185 1/2 last rated as RING #4 HW

-Lee Murray 202 lbs RING #3 and #6 HW

-Lee Savold 195

-Bob Pastor 184,183 RING #3 HW

-Tami Mauriello 180, 187 RING #2 HW

-Pat Valentino 184


2. I don't care how boxrec classifies him. Hardly definitive.


3. 177 is still HW. He weighed 180, 186 in his next two fights. 179 and 182 in the previous two. Bivins weighed over 180 in 39 straight fights from 43-48. Peaking at 192 at the age of 27. He never weighed below the LHW limit after the AGE OF 23!

In the last 12 years of his career, Bivins only weighed below 180 5 times, the lowest being 177 against Henry. Nice try. Your argument holds no water. If a man hasn't made LHW since he was 23 years of age, and fought as a HW the final 12 years of his career, coming in as high 192 and as a low 177, and over 180 about 98% of the time. He is a Heavyweight.
If a guy makes 177lbs and he is 32 years old he can make lhvy with ease.Its only 2 lbs for Christ sake! Bivins wins over Maxim Moore,Cristoforidis,Bettina,Mauriello ect ,are wins over men that made their reps as Lhvys and remained essentially so.Bivins ,like those mentioned followed the money into the higher class.As did Johnson,Lesnevich, and Jones.Valentino was a guy that made lhvy when he was 26
Who says Bivins peaked at 192lbs ? Five years later he was 15lbs lighter!

Bivins had 112 fights, for 47 of those he was under 180lbs.

Moore was 168lbs
Marshall 164lbs
Christoforidis 168lbs
Charles 165lbs
Maxim178lbs

You just keep digging away .

Last edited by mcvey; 06-24-2014 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 06-24-2014, 09:42 AM   #13
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Default Re: Is Jimmy Bivins run from 1943-1945 one of the best ever?

good stuff Suzie keep it coming
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Old 06-24-2014, 10:52 AM   #14
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Default Re: Is Jimmy Bivins run from 1943-1945 one of the best ever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post

If a guy makes 177lbs and he is 32 years old he can make lhvy with ease.Its only 2 lbs for Christ sake!

Bivins wins over Maxim Moore,Cristoforidis,Bettina,Mauriello ect ,are wins over men that made their reps as Lhvys and remained essentially so.

Who says Bivins peaked at 192lbs ? Five years later he was 15lbs lighter!

Bivins had 112 fights, for 47 of those he was under 180lbs.

Moore was 168lbs
Marshall 164lbs
Christoforidis 168lbs
Charles 165lbs
Maxim178lbs

You just keep digging away .
-That is your theoretical opinion based off a single match. I can point to over 60 matches in a 12 year period that make my HW claim a fact.

-I've provided the weights and HW rankings of those men when Bivins fought them. Moore and Cristoforidis were LHWs at the time.

-It was his peak weight in the period outlined. And 6 years later he was 192 again, maybe you are just reading too much into a single match. An apparent poor effort against a man he easily beat when he came in at his most normal 180+ weight at that. Perhaps Bivins was just not well fed or over training during these precious few dips below 180.

-And those 47 fights were prior August 1943 and occured when Bivins was a 19-22 year old kid.

-Yep, that's 4 out of 11 as I already stated.

-I'm digging a huge hole in your LHW claim. Bivins never made the LHW limit after turning 23 years of age, after that he averaged 180-190 for the rest of his career, with only 5 fights below 180 and 4 fights above 190. A low of 177 and a high of 195.

Last edited by The Mongoose; 06-24-2014 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:56 AM   #15
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Default Re: Is Jimmy Bivins run from 1943-1945 one of the best ever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mongoose View Post
-That is your theoretical opinion based off a single match. I can point to over 60 matches in a 12 year period that make my HW claim a fact.

-I've provided the weights and HW rankings of those men when Bivins fought them. Moore and Cristoforidis were LHWs at the time.

-It was his peak weight in the period outlined. And 6 years later he was 192 again, maybe you are just reading too much into a single match. An apparent poor effort against a man he easily beat when he came in at his most normal 180+ weight at that. Perhaps Bivins was just not well fed or over training during these precious few dips below 180.

-And those 47 fights were prior August 1943 and occured when Bivins was a 19-22 year old kid.

-Yep, that's 4 out of 11 as I already stated.

-I'm digging a huge hole in your LHW claim. Bivins never made the LHW limit after turning 23 years of age, after that he averaged 180-190 for the rest of his career, with only 5 fights below 180 and 4 fights above 190. A low of 177 and a high of 195.
I didn't make an opinion, theoretical or otherwise, I just challenged your arbitrary statement that Bivins was prime at 192lbs.

The fact remains that 4 of the names off that list were under or around the middleweight limit, and several around the lhvy limit.

It's still a great record, but it isnt one scored over too many bona fide heavyweights.

The fact remains that Bivins scaled 177lbs when he was 32 years old, if you want to claim that makes him a bona fide heavyweight then fine. It just means that your classification is"hardly definitive", to the point of being blatantly agenda driven.
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