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Old 09-15-2007, 01:21 AM   #1
ironchamp
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Default Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

Everytime this match up is brought up, the results are similar;

Tyson wins by KO/TKO in a decisive manner

or

"If Marciano can make it out of the first 3-4 rounds then Rocky stops Tyson late"

For those that pick the latter:

Out of curiousity what happens if Marciano makes it out the first 3-4 rounds?

Because based on that premise it seems to be that the majority of those that pick Rocky to win if he weathers the storm are in effect conceding that the first 3-4 rounds are most likely going to be won by Tyson. It seems to be the consensus amongst this thread even by those who pick Rocky. If that is in fact the case what is it that leads you to believe, or anyone for that matter that Marciano trailing on points would all of a sudden start to land more accurate punches, have a better punch resistance and outwork an increasingly confident Mike Tyson who is building up a lead on the scorecard?

If were are talking about both fighters at thier best then lasting the distance shouldnt be an issue. Why would Mike all of a sudden crumble just because Marciano (who is behind on points) is still standing?

I'd like to think that my questions are valid but my observation is that this is a match up in which Tyson has a stylistic advantage which is why people seem to concede that he takes the early lead. From what I'm observing from some you, the only way Marciano takes this is if Tyson somehow gives up and stops fighting as a result of being discouraged that he hasnt stopped THe ROCK. I can't picture Tyson quitting a fight in which he's ahead. For Tyson to be ahead it means that he's connecting, he's dictating the pace. Usually in a fight when a fighter dictates the pace of a fight the only time the momentum changes is if:

A. His opponent adjusts and adopts a slightly different style/approach

B. His opponent lands a big punch and puts him on the defensive.

C. He runs out of gas.

Trouble is:

A. Marciano only fights one way.

B. Tyson has never lost a fight because of a momentum changing punch

C. In Tyson's prime he could fight hard for 12 rounds.


So please enlighten me what Marciano will do to win this fight.


Thank you.
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Old 09-15-2007, 02:03 AM   #2
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Default Re: Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

People say the same thing about Marciano VS Dempsey, and I don't agree. With that logic you could say that Marciano would beat anyone just by "outlasting" them and "wearing them down" with his stamina, durability, high workrate and chin. That might work for someone with a tendency to fade in tough fight, but it doesn't work for a lot of others. Besides, if Marciano goes against a puncher the caliber of Tyson (or Dempsey) He'll be getting worn down, too, and much worse as either Tyson and Dempsey had faster hands, better defense and better acuraccy than Marciano. Of course, there's always the "Tyson was mentally weak" argument, and that may be true, but since I can't imagine any point where Tyson wouldn't be dominating Marciano, I don't think he'd lose confidence and crumble mentally.
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Old 09-15-2007, 02:08 AM   #3
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Default Re: Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

I see an early to mid round stoppage for Mike
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Old 09-15-2007, 02:19 AM   #4
ironchamp
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Default Re: Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

I agree about the Dempsey arguement as well.
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Old 09-15-2007, 03:09 AM   #5
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Default Re: Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

Marcino will ko Tyson. he HAD Eishewer on his side lol.
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Old 09-15-2007, 06:21 AM   #6
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Default Re: Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironchamp
So please enlighten me what Marciano will do to win this fight.


Thank you.
Dosn't follow that he will of course but as the fight progreses certain elements will start to come into play.

1. Workrate

Tysons punch output per round falls off after about four rounds while Marcianos just gets better as the fight progreses. Tyson will start out at about 60 punches per round and drop to 40 while Marciano will start off at about 60 and work up to 80 peaking at about 100 if he has Tyson in trouble.

2. Infighting ability

Tyson is esentialy a mid range fighter and dose not react well on the inside as the Holyfield fight shows. How is he going to react to a smaller infighter who has a terific punch and is phenomenaly busy.

Hard to say.

3. Intangibles

While I don't agree with those who say that Tyson folds when the heat is on a fight between two come forward fighters will somtimes come down to who wants it most if both guys are getting the snot beaten out of them. Rocky will want it more.

In all I think that this much more complicated match up than some might think.
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Old 09-15-2007, 07:26 AM   #7
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Default Re: Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironchamp

B. Tyson has never lost a fight because of a momentum changing punch
He was already losing the fight at that point, but when Holyfield landed that overhand right on Tyson in the 10th round, it was a big change in momentum. Tyson went from into the fight to pretty much out of the fight.
Considering Marciano punches harder than Holyfield, it is possible.

Now i do think fatigue and conditioning had a lot to do with that example because Tyson had taken quite a beating already over those 10 rounds and was prepared for a 3 round Mathis-Bruno like fight in addition to being past his best.


I think the scenario many people think of is that Marciano starts picking up the pace after the 4th and outworks Tyson for the rest of the fight. Or that while losing the first rounds, he comes out fresher in the second half and knocks a tired Tyson out. Something i can envision him doing against a lot of fighters, but not against Tyson, by the way... not if they're going toe to toe, anyway.
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Old 09-15-2007, 08:43 AM   #8
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Default Re: Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

Depends so much on how much damage is done to Marciano early.
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:23 AM   #9
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Default Re: Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

Too small. Tyson is ahead of Marciano in every department.. maybe not willpower but this should be a slaughter. Marciano would get TKO'd
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:52 AM   #10
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Default Re: Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

Marciano took eleven opponents out in a single round (including Jersey Joe Walcott), and seven more out in two (including Kid Matthews). The only comparable opponent Mike Spinks took out relatively quickly was Marvin Johnson (in four rounds). Much of Tyson's reputation as a fast starter stems from his performances against boxers who were not noted as fast starters themselves, or sacrificial tomato cans and journeymen.

I see both getting off to a solid start, and the match going beyond the opening rounds, to become a battle of attrition. Tyson would find himself in the uncharacteristic position of being the taller man, having to give ground to the lower Marciano. Tyson was capable of employing lateral movement, and he would need to. When he passed in front of Rocky, his uppercut would be a key punch. Marciano's hook and overhand right could get around Tyson's peek-a-boo defense. He would need to counter with punches inside whatever wide hooks and overhands Marciano throws at him, not an easy task considering Rocky's shorter arms. In close, Marciano's shorter arms would become an asset, not a liability.

Tyson would begin to wear as the match continued. While Rocky did sustain a couple of flash knockdowns, his resistance to pain was demonstrated by his tolerance of his split nose in the Charles rematch. Nor was Marciano ever stunned or wobbled in any way. Tyson may be dealing with an opponent who actually is impervious to seeing stars, something not true for Tyson. Sure, Tyson might drop Rocky for a flash KD, but that would be about it. If it was a 15 rounder, Tyson would falter before the final bell, as his arms become a Marciano target in the employment of his peak-a-boo cover.
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:13 AM   #11
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Default Re: Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMagic
Too small. Tyson is ahead of Marciano in every department.. maybe not willpower but this should be a slaughter. Marciano would get TKO'd

Both had the same size. Marciano was naturally heavier than Tyson, but he trained so hard to go down in weight for his phenomenal stamina. Tyson wasnīt that big like you do, with the roids he took itīs no wonder that he had bigger muscles than a Marciano for example, btw, the Lacy- Calzaghe- fight should finally show some of you that muscles arenīt the most important thing in boxing...


Tyson is in fantasy matchups heavily overrated, I really donīt know why. Heīs typical, like many others, against mediocre contenders he looked great, but against very good fighters at HW (not a LHW or a shot ex-champ) like Holyfield, Lewis, etc. he didnīt look that spectacular, I would bet for a Marciano- stoppage. He had the heart to suffer hard punches and he would trade with Mike. Tyson wouldnīt last the distance, I know, for some of you it sounds strange that the black bad boy would probably lose, but itīs the truth...
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:17 AM   #12
prime
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Default Re: Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
Marciano took eleven opponents out in a single round (including Jersey Joe Walcott), and seven more out in two (including Kid Matthews). The only comparable opponent Mike Spinks took out relatively quickly was Marvin Johnson (in four rounds). Much of Tyson's reputation as a fast starter stems from his performances against boxers who were not noted as fast starters themselves, or sacrificial tomato cans and journeymen.

I see both getting off to a solid start, and the match going beyond the opening rounds, to become a battle of attrition. Tyson would find himself in the uncharacteristic position of being the taller man, having to give ground to the lower Marciano. Tyson was capable of employing lateral movement, and he would need to. When he passed in front of Rocky, his uppercut would be a key punch. Marciano's hook and overhand right could get around Tyson's peek-a-boo defense. He would need to counter with punches inside whatever wide hooks and overhands Marciano throws at him, not an easy task considering Rocky's shorter arms. In close, Marciano's shorter arms would become an asset, not a liability.

Tyson would begin to wear as the match continued. While Rocky did sustain a couple of flash knockdowns, his resistance to pain was demonstrated by his tolerance of his split nose in the Charles rematch. Nor was Marciano ever stunned or wobbled in any way. Tyson may be dealing with an opponent who actually is impervious to seeing stars, something not true for Tyson. Sure, Tyson might drop Rocky for a flash KD, but that would be about it. If it was a 15 rounder, Tyson would falter before the final bell, as his arms become a Marciano target in the employment of his peak-a-boo cover.
When Marciano fought for the title, he was immediately dropped by 38-year-old Walcott in the very first round. When Tyson fought for the title, he immediately began to shock and rock a much taller, heavier and stronger man in Berbick, awesomely stopping him inside 2.

Based on these two fighters' actual performances on film, not on mythology, Tyson blasts through Marciano early as soon as he lands his first powerful punch, which the comparatively small, slow, defensively-deficient Marciano would not avoid for more than a couple of minutes.
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:21 AM   #13
Luigi1985
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Default Re: Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

Quote:
Originally Posted by prime
When Marciano fought for the title, he was immediately dropped by 38-year-old Walcott in the very first round. When Tyson fought for the title, he immediately began to shock and rock a much taller, heavier and stronger man in Berbick, awesomely stopping him inside 2.

Based on these two fighters' actual performances on film, not on mythology, Tyson blasts through Marciano early as soon as he lands his first powerful punch, which the comparatively small, slow, defensively-deficient Marciano would not avoid for more than a couple of minutes.

Berbick was bigger than Walcott, thatīs right. But Walcott was a much better fighter, who had at least twice the punch Trevor had. Jersey Joe could for example KO Tyson if he would land a good shot (for example one of his unexpected left hooks). Before you guys always talk about size, strengths, height, etc. it would be better, to make yourself experiences in boxing practice, than you wouldnīt always talk about ridiculous weight advantages (weīre talking about perhaps 15 lbs or that, thatīs nothing, itīs not so that we talk about 100 lbs)...
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:25 AM   #14
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Default Re: Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

Luigi, bad argument using Lacy-Calzaghe, because Tyson was 4x as quick as Marciano.

It would be a wipe out because Rocky lacks the defence to not absord the combinations that would come at him.
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:28 AM   #15
Luigi1985
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Default Re: Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsterdam
Luigi, bad argument using Lacy-Calzaghe, because Tyson was 4x as quick as Marciano.

It would be a wipe out because Rocky lacks the defence to not absord the combinations that would come at him.

I wasnīt a bad example. I only said to some kids, who never stood in a ring, that muscles at boxing arenīt automatically a advantage, sometimes too much muscles are even a disadvantage. In this case, Tyson had better handspeed, threw faster combinations, etc., but Marciano had the better chin, and had more rare power, and every punch he threw he threw with power, so i canīt see Tyson lasting the distance, because he didnīt have the chin/fighting spirit to win against a great fighter in his prime...
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