Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-17-2013, 05:35 PM   #166
lufcrazy
requiescat in pace
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: England, Up North
Posts: 22,518
vCash: 330
Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post


What's your range for Holman Williams, Packey McFarland or Stanley Ketchell? Ish.
McFarland is top 30. Williams and Ketchel are both similarly ranked for me in the top 60 area.

I think the onle negative regarding the fab 4 is that hearns got iced by Barkley so I could see him being ranked lower but he offset that by amazingly outboxing Virgil Hill for me.
lufcrazy is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 02-17-2013, 05:38 PM   #167
lufcrazy
requiescat in pace
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: England, Up North
Posts: 22,518
vCash: 330
Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
I disagree with your comments regarding the triangle theory.

In fact, i think the triangle theory (if that is the best word) is the best we have available to predict results.

WE all know the exceptions and no one has any real statistics. But, if Three fighters of roughly equal (or so it is thought) fight, and Fighter A beats fighter B and fighter B beats fighter C, then more often than not Fighter A will beat fighter c. Eg Wlad beats Wach. Wach beats Tye Fields. It is a fair bet that Wlad beats Tye Fields (though not a cerainty). It is only rare occassions that the famouse Foreman, Frazier, Ali triangle pops up. When you add an extra fighter into the triangle (probably making more of a pyramid) it would seem to lessen the number of upsets.

In fact, this is probably (i dare say) more reliable of an indicator than actually a proven fight between the two. Or at least it can be. For example, Brewster beat Wlad. Do we expect a repeat of the performance in the rematch? Most trilogies or at least half of them seem to have a fighter dropping at least one return match. I dare say the triangle theory is a far better indicator as a results indicator. Particularly when their are two or three common results to compare.

Of course, the worst indicator by far is the commonly held video footage theory. You simply cannot look at a fighter (without knowing their records) and judge how they will perform or what class of fighter they are with any certainty. In fact i challenge anyone to predict the results of any 10 unknown professional fighters by watching clips of fights against other unknown professionals and come up with much better than a 50-50 result (in fact you wont go much better than someone who just looks at the fighters and takes a guess based on size and fitness). Certainly you wont get anywhere near somebody who is allowed to look at their boxrec record and use their common opponents as a guide.

People dont like to hear it, but the triangle theory as you call it is easily the most reliable out their in my opinion. Of course, nothing is infallible, but it is pretty good.
I couldn't disagree more tbh. Triangle theories are bullshit especially when it's a conjected triangle theory.
lufcrazy is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 05:43 PM   #168
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 36,967
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

Here is the resume of Holman Williams:

Bob Satterfield
Archie Moore
Bert Lytell
Cocoa Kid
Kid Tunero
Joe Carter
Lloyd Marshall
Jack Chase
Charley Burley
Eddie Booker
Gene Buffalo
Steve Belloise
Jose Basora
Jimmy Leto
Izzy Jannazzo


It's fuuuuuuuuuuuucking insane. It's among the very best of resumes. There is no way in shitsville either Williams or Hagler is way ahead of this guy.

As far as Williams goes, i was thinking 7 or 8?
McGrain is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 05:48 PM   #169
TheSouthpaw
Champion
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,932
vCash: 500
Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Here is the resume of Holman Williams:

Bob Satterfield
Archie Moore
Bert Lytell
Cocoa Kid
Kid Tunero
Joe Carter
Lloyd Marshall
Jack Chase
Charley Burley
Eddie Booker
Gene Buffalo
Steve Belloise
Jose Basora
Jimmy Leto
Izzy Jannazzo


It's fuuuuuuuuuuuucking insane. It's among the very best of resumes. There is no way in shitsville either Williams or Hagler is way ahead of this guy.

As far as Williams goes, i was thinking 7 or 8?

Pretty impressive Resume!
TheSouthpaw is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 05:49 PM   #170
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Here is the resume of Holman Williams:

Bob Satterfield
Archie Moore
Bert Lytell
Cocoa Kid
Kid Tunero
Joe Carter
Lloyd Marshall
Jack Chase
Charley Burley
Eddie Booker
Gene Buffalo
Steve Belloise
Jose Basora
Jimmy Leto
Izzy Jannazzo


It's fuuuuuuuuuuuucking insane. It's among the very best of resumes. There is no way in shitsville either Williams or Hagler is way ahead of this guy.

As far as Williams goes, i was thinking 7 or 8?
Tier seven or eight? For Ike Williams when Holman is in three? Mate are you ****ing losing it?

Here's what I could find off my own back. All boxers rated at some point in the RING's annual top ten (Hall of Famers in bold):

Holman:

Battling Gizzy
Lew Massey
Tony Falco
Slugger White
Bobby Pacho
Saverio Turiello
Jack Portney
Steve Mamakos
Izzy Jannazzo
Joe Legon
Antonio Fernandez (x2)
Jimmy Leto
Jose Basora (x3)
Kid Tunero (x3)
Joe Carter (x2)
Eddie Booker
Steve Belloise
Jack Chase (x4)
Paul Lewis
Aaron Wade (x2)
Bert Lytell
George Henry
Bob Satterfield
Henry Hall

Charley Burley (x3)
Archie Moore
Cocoa Kid (x3)
Lloyd Marshall (x2)


Ike:

Lefty LaChance (x2)
Wes Mouzon
Slugger White
Johnny Bratton (x3)
Dave Castilloux
Sonny West
Ronnie James
Lester Felton
Willie Roache
Johnny Hutchinson
Lulu Constantino
Joe Miceli
Bobby Ruffin
Bill Speary
Buddy Garcia
Gene Burton (x2)
Ralph Zannelli (x2)
Jesse Flores
Joey Peralta
Willie Joyce
Freddie Dawson (x3)
Maxie Berger
Juan Zurita
Tony Pellone
Rudy Cruz (x2)
Nick Moran
Enrique Bolanos (x3)

Sammy Angott (x2)
Bob Montgomery
Kid Gavilan
Beau Jack (x3)


There is no ****ing way Ike is four or five tiers lower.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 05:50 PM   #171
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 36,967
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

Cocoa Kid made the hall of fame now.
McGrain is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 05:53 PM   #172
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Cocoa Kid made the hall of fame now.
Yes and I just amended it, so is Lloyd Marshall. It was a list did some time ago.

Is that all you have to say?

Move Ike somewhere sensible.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 05:56 PM   #173
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 36,967
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

Well Ike isn't in there yet. Nor is about 100 other fighters that are absolutely superb. There are not room for all of them and there are not room for all of them to be in the same tier as Holman Williams. But we shall see. I can't rate anybody on the say so of their #1 fanboy, but nor can I ignore a sensible argument and a nice list of beaten fighters is a fine start.
McGrain is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 06:02 PM   #174
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Well Ike isn't in there yet. Nor is about 100 other fighters that are absolutely superb. There are not room for all of them and there are not room for all of them to be in the same tier as Holman Williams. But we shall see. I can't rate anybody on the say so of their #1 fanboy, but nor can I ignore a sensible argument and a nice list of beaten fighters is a fine start.
Yeah ****ing good, you are driving me to regular profanity here. But you should be actively thinking of Ike Williams. Such a tough era he fought in. Dawson and Joyce were Murderer's Row level themselves, and so was a welterweight Bratton an equivalent opponent for the lightweight champion.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 06:04 PM   #175
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

Fan boy

I defy you to separate Williams and Williams by a tier. Let alone ****ing four or five, shit. I'd have it like:

28. Ike
31. Holman

Reasonably it could be the other way round if you like them in reverse. But four or five tiers...
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 06:11 PM   #176
the cobra
Awesomeizationism!
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,982
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

Hopkins is totally greater than Zarate. Greater than Sanchez, too. No doubt about it. I like Carlos Ortiz.

Anyway, this thread quite mightily proves that lists going past the top 12 is just nonsense. It's all a big cluster**** past a certain point.
the cobra is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 06:14 PM   #177
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 36,967
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

Nah, nah nah nah, it proves that not everybody is going to agree past a certain point. And that point is 01. Start a thread if you don't believe me "Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest fighter ever". It will do ten pages.

Something like this is clearly harder and requires more patience because it lets just about everyone's favourite into the mix but it's also clearly a work in progress. Have faith.
McGrain is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 06:20 PM   #178
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Nah, nah nah nah, it proves that not everybody is going to agree past a certain point. And that point is 01. Start a thread if you don't believe me "Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest fighter ever". It will do ten pages.

Something like this is clearly harder and requires more patience because it lets just about everyone's favourite into the mix but it's also clearly a work in progress. Have faith.
You are so far offering little to have faith in when you seem to believe an Ike Williams is, I don't know, fifty or something, when Holman is much, much higher. I can drop Benny Leonard. I can drop Archie Moore. I can't even be bothered to go into Rodriguez-Griffith. But Williams and Williams are so close in career terms they may as well occupy the same spot. I wish you'd graciously acknowledge this grave oversight and appreciate that Williams is considered a top five lightweight by those familiar with him.

I admitted it when I overrated Tunney. Come on.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 06:28 PM   #179
the cobra
Awesomeizationism!
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,982
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Have faith.
No.



Imma ask you something though: Why so much more love for Zarate than Gomez? He smashed him up, ya know?
the cobra is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 06:28 PM   #180
lora
Fighting Zapata
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,555
vCash: 500
Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

So Watanabe doesn't have a chance then
lora is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013