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Old 02-21-2013, 10:10 AM   #766
lora
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Default Re: Help me sort out a top 100 pound for pound

Risko was the caveman lee of 30s middles.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:23 PM   #767
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Default Re: Help me sort out a top 100 pound for pound

Steele is in VII, i moved Dempsey down to VIII.


Tier I

1) San Langford
2) Harry Greb
3) Ray Robinson
4) Henry Armstrong
5) Bob Fitzsimmons
6) Ezzard Charles
7) Muhammad Ali
Benny Leonard

Tier II
Joe Gans, Mickey Walker, Archie Moore, Roberto Duran, Packey McFarland, Joe Louis, Willie Pep, Sugar Ray Leonard.

Tier III
George Dixon, Joe Walcott, Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri, Jimmy McLarnin, Sandy Saddler.

Tier IV
Gene Tunney, Pernell Whitaker, Roy Jones, Terry McGovern, Billy Conn, Kid Gavilan, Stanley Ketchel, Eder Jofre, Tommy Loughran, Tommy Gibbons.

Tier V
Julio Cesar Chavez, Ruben Olivares, Alexis Arguello, Jose Napoles, Emile Griffith, Jack Britton, Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler, Jimmy Bivins, Tommy Ryan, Jimmy Wilde.

Tier VI
Mike Gibbons, Evander Holyfield, Fighting Harada, Michael Spinks, Thomas Hearns, Carlos Ortiz, Ike Williams, Jimmy Wilde, Rocky Marciano, Young Corbett.

Tier VII
Ted Kid Lewis, Carlos Zarate, Luis Manuel Rodriguez, Bernard Hopkins, Floyd Mayweather, Manny Pacquiao, Salvador Sanchez, Abe Attell, Wilfredo Gomez, Freddie Steele.

Tier VIII
Oscar De La Hoya, Sammy Angott, Miguel Canto, Harold Johnson, Manuel Ortiz, Dick Tiger, Lloyd Marshall, Jack Dempsey (np).

Tier IX
Fritzie Zivic, Pascual Perez, Bob Foster, Panama Al Brown, Jimmy Driscoll, Freddie Welsh.

What about these guys? (Holding)
Larry Holmes, Benny Lynch, Kid Norfolk, James Toney, Teddy Yarosz, Juan Manuel Marquez, Sammy Mendell, Vincente Saldivar, Pete Herman, Mike McCallum, Azumah Nelson.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:29 PM   #768
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Default Re: Help me sort out a top 100 pound for pound

Still not comfortable with Jofre>Harada (the Jap' has the more impressive P4P credentials too) but as it appears that Harada is inside the top 50, I've done well.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:38 PM   #769
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Default Re: Help me sort out a top 100 pound for pound

Larry Holmes, Benny Lynch, Kid Norfolk, James Toney, Teddy Yarosz, Juan Manuel Marquez, Sammy Mendell, Vincente Saldivar, Pete Herman, Mike McCallum, Azumah Nelson.

Given my view on Holmes.
Toney - not just yet. He was a roid cheat we also have to remember. Forced McCallum to cut 10lbs each time and fought Mike at the end of his career. Yeah sure, I have him winning fight 1, with fight 2 it's very even - but external conditions i.e age and weight disadvantage for McCallum make me say this says more for Mike's overall greatness than it does for Toney.
McCallum's gradual move from light middleweight to cruiserweight is also a good feat.
I think it's the right place for Mike. He had many close wars so he never really shutout his opponents the way Roy did to him for example.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:46 PM   #770
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Default Re: Help me sort out a top 100 pound for pound

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Larry Holmes, Benny Lynch, Kid Norfolk, James Toney, Teddy Yarosz, Juan Manuel Marquez, Sammy Mendell, Vincente Saldivar, Pete Herman, Mike McCallum, Azumah Nelson.

Given my view on Holmes.
Toney - not just yet. He was a roid cheat we also have to remember. Forced McCallum to cut 10lbs each time and fought Mike at the end of his career. Yeah sure, I have him winning fight 1, with fight 2 it's very even - but external conditions i.e age and weight disadvantage for McCallum make me say this says more for Mike's overall greatness than it does for Toney.
McCallum's gradual move from light middleweight to cruiserweight is also a good feat.
I think it's the right place for Mike. He had many close wars so he never really shutout his opponents the way Roy did to him for example.

I mostly agree. I'm not convinced my Toney's being in the 100 as a matter of course.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:02 PM   #771
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Default Re: Help me sort out a top 100 pound for pound

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Larry Holmes, Benny Lynch, Kid Norfolk, James Toney, Teddy Yarosz, Juan Manuel Marquez, Sammy Mendell, Vincente Saldivar, Pete Herman, Mike McCallum, Azumah Nelson.

Given my view on Holmes.
Toney - not just yet. He was a roid cheat we also have to remember. Forced McCallum to cut 10lbs each time and fought Mike at the end of his career. Yeah sure, I have him winning fight 1, with fight 2 it's very even - but external conditions i.e age and weight disadvantage for McCallum make me say this says more for Mike's overall greatness than it does for Toney.
McCallum's gradual move from light middleweight to cruiserweight is also a good feat.
I think it's the right place for Mike. He had many close wars so he never really shutout his opponents the way Roy did to him for example.
Agreed, good post.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:13 PM   #772
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Default Re: Help me sort out a top 100 pound for pound

You mentioned the dreaded name, Juan Manuel Marquez. I don't feel like you can mention him without mentioning Barrera and Morales. I believe they deserve the same bracket.
Barrera and Morales have better names for sure, but Pacquiao x 3 is pretty monstrous to be honest. Juan's longevity and his skill level as a counter puncher is extremely solid. He did still edge a slightly past prime (but still legit) Barrera too (just about), so that's why I think he should be in the same bracket.
I think I have Barrera as the greatest of the three.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:17 PM   #773
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I used to have Barrera highest. But **** Marquez. Can't figure out where to place him so I don't now.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:17 PM   #774
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Default Re: Help me sort out a top 100 pound for pound

Might was well toss Fidel LaBarba's name out there for consideration...

* Thrown to the wolves almost immediately, he faces Jimmy McLarnin three times in his first five bouts; manages a draw in one of them.
* Scores a decision over Frankie Genero to win the Flyweight World Championship
* Scores a pair of victories over Bud Taylor, considered one of the better bantams in history
* Scores a victory over Kid Chocolate, and runs him extremely close in their other two fights.
* Decision over future Top 20 at feather, Petey Sarron
* Holds victories over a whole host of solid contenders like Tommy Paul, Kid Francis, Bushy Graham, Earl Mastro, Elky Clark, Georgie Rivers, Clever Sencio.

Really, LaBarba was matched about as tough as anyone has been from the start of their career, and still managed to win an undisputed championship, collected some very impressive scalps, and accumulate a fine record in almost 100 fights, and avoid being stopped in his entire career.

Yeah...I say he deserves placement on this list. Tier IX or Tier X at the absolute worst.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:21 PM   #775
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Default Re: Help me sort out a top 100 pound for pound

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Ah, James Toney. Another strange case in the fact that he could be extremely inconsistent at times yet put together a very strong career.

Wins over McCallum, Jirov, Nunn, Barkley, Holyfield, C. Williams, Littles, Thornton, DeWitt, Johnson, Sosa, etc. Combined with extremely good weight climbing abilities makes a strong case. Not many former middles can travel all the way up to cruiserweight and topple a guy like Vassiliy Jirov.

But then there's the scandal with the drugs, losses to Peter even if he was at his best, and struggled with competition he should've been gliding through. Lost to Montell Griffin twice also.
A top 100 boxer? Hard to say, really. At the moment I err to the side of no.
I dunno'. The 'not many middles can' is not strictly true. Jirov was very good but not brilliant and a bit past his physical best. I'll imagine there's quite a few former middles that have beaten similar opposition between 180-200lbs. And not while fat, although I actually think those performances make me appreciate his pure skill and toughness even more.

He is old school. I could see him in the 80-100 bracket. Then again where is Stribling, Harold Johnson, Hell, where da funk is Jimmy Ellis

Also, is Eddie Booker that far behind the other listed 'Murderers Row' members?
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:23 PM   #776
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Default Re: Help me sort out a top 100 pound for pound

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What did Pep do in a p4p sense i.e. moving up multiple divisions that compares to Pea? how is he 2 tiers above pea when he didn't do as much as pea moving up?
Well, for what its worth I only have about 6 spots separating them.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:24 PM   #777
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Default Re: Help me sort out a top 100 pound for pound

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Yeah, we need to push the case for Fidel LaBarba goddammit!
Wasn't McLarnin also very inexperienced and the lesser amateur to the Gold medalist Labarba?

As already stated though Labarba, Wolgast, Newsboy, Villa, and many other little guys from the 20s did some mental things.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:25 PM   #778
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Default Re: Help me sort out a top 100 pound for pound

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Might was well toss Fidel LaBarba's name out there for consideration...

* Thrown to the wolves almost immediately, he faces Jimmy McLarnin three times in his first five bouts; manages a draw in one of them.
* Scores a decision over Frankie Genero to win the Flyweight World Championship
* Scores a pair of victories over Bud Taylor, considered one of the better bantams in history
* Scores a victory over Kid Chocolate, and runs him extremely close in their other two fights.
* Decision over future Top 20 at feather, Petey Sarron
* Holds victories over a whole host of solid contenders like Tommy Paul, Kid Francis, Bushy Graham, Earl Mastro, Elky Clark, Georgie Rivers, Clever Sencio.

Really, LaBarba was matched about as tough as anyone has been from the start of their career, and still managed to win an undisputed championship, collected some very impressive scalps, and accumulate a fine record in almost 100 fights, and avoid being stopped in his entire career.

Yeah...I say he deserves placement on this list. Tier IX or Tier X at the absolute worst.
Lovely post.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:31 PM   #779
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Wins over Zivic, Armstrong, Joyce, Janiro, Montgomery.

Can Beau Jack be #100 please
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:32 PM   #780
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Nice reply Orriray. We're on the same page it seems.
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