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Old 02-16-2013, 03:14 PM   #76
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Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

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Dempsey was ****ing shit and you know it.
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dempsey sucked, he avoided black fighters, avoided greb, overrated, hobo, firpo, willard was a farmer....there. we got that out of the way
No mention of dancers legs? terrible classic, terrible.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:15 PM   #77
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Maybe Spinks might lack the depth, but he dominated the LHW division for nearly five years. Goes up and defeats a consensus top 10 HW in Larry Holmes. Becoming the second man to win both LHW and HW championships (Correct me if wrong). And he didn't just go up and beat some guy with a belt (Ruiz), he beat the regarded man of the division. And not just once, but twice (Albeit controversially).
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:19 PM   #78
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Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

Yeah. I have Spinks in the 35-45 range. Achievement, ability, only one loss and how could you take much from him for that?

I can rank him over Burley. No probs.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:21 PM   #79
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Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

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Maybe Spinks might lack the depth, but he dominated the LHW division for nearly five years. Goes up and defeats a consensus top 10 HW in Larry Holmes. Becoming the second man to win both LHW and HW championships (Correct me if wrong). And he didn't just go up and beat some guy with a belt (Ruiz), he beat the regarded man of the division. And not just once, but twice (Albeit controversially).
damn right. his small number of relative fights looks worse than it is, he dominated easily the second best era at 175 and moved up and, as you said, beat a top 5 heavyweight. he's a top 30-40 guy for me with no reservations
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:22 PM   #80
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Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

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You're wrong on this one. I'll give Duran-Moore up to the Gods of subjectivity considering they have different forms of quality. But Pep. Naw, hell no. Pep's undefeated streaks seems sold short. We're talking arguably the greatest pure boxer here. Moore was bettered by superior adversaries multiple times. He showed himself a fighter, but never really did as the most superior or dominant one. Pep at least past his prime masterfully outpointed his adversary, and even then the other bouts where full of rough-house shit that basically cost Pep decisions.
You're right, Pep does get a bit underrated. Above Duran and Fitzsimmons (so, #8 for me) but one below Moore. Why? Moore first beat a rated contender in 1940 and beat his last in 1962! Jesus on toast, he even drew with Willie Pastrano when nearly fifty. I think I counted about sixty seven rated contenders which is far more than anyone else I counted for, including Pep. On the list were many heavyweights.

He shared his early light heavyweight days with Charles and I regard that as pretty unfortunate rather than Moore not being top ten worthy, because he later proved to be clearly superior to Johnson & Maxim and at thirty five plus, went on to hold the light heavyweight title for ten years and beat every heavyweight not named Marciano or Patterson.

Only a space above Pep though.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:25 PM   #81
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the knock against pep is the quality of opposition. he beat a SHITLOAD of top contenders but how many great fighters did he fight and what was his record against them? just stirring the pot baby...
Eh, plenty of quality. Chalkey Wright multiple times, Manuel Ortiz, Sal Bartolo, and Paddy DeMarco.

And it's not like his first streak was broken completely without arguments of it being a close and arguably controversial fight.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:28 PM   #82
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Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

Yeah Pep has real credentials. I like seeing him rated high. I love a top five Pep.

But like I always say, Moore amazes me every time I look at his record or read about this beating, that illness, this fatness, that country, whatever. His Charles and Marciano losses in particular were really unlucky tragedies.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:29 PM   #83
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You're right, Pep does get a bit underrated. Above Duran and Fitzsimmons (so, #8 for me) but one below Moore. Why? Moore first beat a rated contender in 1940 and beat his last in 1962! Jesus on toast, he even drew with Willie Pastrano when nearly fifty. I think I counted about sixty seven rated contenders which is far more than anyone else I counted for, including Pep. On the list were many heavyweights.

He shared his early light heavyweight days with Charles and I regard that as pretty unfortunate rather than Moore not being top ten worthy, because he later proved to be clearly superior to Johnson & Maxim and at thirty five plus, went on to hold the light heavyweight title for ten years and beat every heavyweight not named Marciano or Patterson.

Only a space above Pep though.
Moore was amazing for his fountain of youth. It's a longevity versus dominance argument. No wrong answer really, I must admit. I prefer the dominance one, I guess. Love Moore, though.

Moore's HW record gets underrated slightly, I think. He wasn't just a guy up there. He beat some real good fighters, and even knocked some around well into his 40's!
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:33 PM   #84
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Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

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Yeah. I have Spinks in the 35-45 range. Achievement, ability, only one loss and how could you take much from him for that?

I can rank him over Burley. No probs.
I'm not sure I'd have him over Burley but there's certainly a real case. I think he should make the top fifty, though.

I would agree with you that McGrain is a little kind to the murderers crew guys like Burley & Holman Williams. Great fighter as they are, though. That high of a ranking feels almost too speculative, though, IMO. I was guilty of this too. Burley looks awesome on film.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:33 PM   #85
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Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

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Moore was amazing for his fountain of youth. It's a longevity versus dominance argument. No wrong answer really, I must admit. I prefer the dominance one, I guess. Love Moore, though.

Moore's HW record gets underrated slightly, I think. He wasn't just a guy up there. He beat some real good fighters, and even knocked some around well into his 40's!
He did. I'm repeating myself now, but I love the fact that a rated 211lbs Lavorante had to be 'carried from the ring on a stretcher' in 1962 - who'd have thought that from some kid who stepped up in the 1930s as a welterweight?
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Old 02-16-2013, 04:02 PM   #86
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Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

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The rules:

1) You cannot suggest removing a fighter all-together without suggesting replacement and which tier he should be in.

2) You cannot add a fighter to the fifty without removing one.

3) You cannot move a fighter from one tier to another without suggesting with whom he should be swapped if you had to swap him.

4) No moving Mickey Walker.

5) I've added a seventh tier for "holding" fighters until someone comes along and makes a persuasive argument.


Tier I

Harry Greb, Bob Fitzsimmons, Sam Langford, Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson, Ezzard Charles, Muhammad Ali


Tier II
Benny Leonard, Joe Gans, Mickey Walker, Archie Moore, Roberto Duran, Packey McFarland, Joe Louis, Willie Pep, Joe Walcott.

Tier III
George Dixon, Eder Jofre, Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Sugar Ray Leonard, Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri, Jimmy McLarnin.

Tier IV
Gene Tunney, Ruben Olivares, Pernell Whitaker, Roy Jones, Terry McGovern, Billy Conn, Kid Gavilan, Sandy Saddler, Stanley Ketchel.

Tier V
Manuel Ortiz, Alexis Arguello, Jimmy Wilde, Jose Napoles, Emile Griffith, Jack Britton, Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler, Jimmy Bivins.

Tier VI

Salvador Sanchez, Julio Cesar Chavez, Evander Holyfield, Jack McAuliffe, Floyd Mayweather, Manny Pacquiao, Thomas Hearns, Rocky Marciano.

Tier VII (Holding)
Tommy Loughran, Ted Kid Lewis, Fighting Harada, Carlos Zarate, Mike Spinks, Jack Dempsey (np), Tommy Ryan, Carlos Ortiz.
I suggest swapping Monzon and Hagler (Both considered the greatest middleweights ever by large proportions of people and top 5 fixtures) ahead of Olivares and Gavilan who are both Good fighters but are rarely considered to be in the top 5 of their division.

Tommy Ryan has to swap with Jofre, imo. Ryan's career is very similar to Ray Robinson's. He must be top 3Tier at least. It was between Jofre and Sugar Ray Leonard, but i think that Jofre has to go. It is bad luck that this means he drops off the list, he is not really a necessarilly a tier above the guys in the bottom tier, so i think it fair enough.

Now that Monzon and Hagler are gone, i think that Tier 6 is actually stronger than tier 5. I would suggest swapping the whole lot.

This leaves my suggestions to be introduced which is Joe Gans, Les Darcy and Barbados Joe Walcott. The easiest way is to swap them with Arguello, Napoles and Ortiz. Which i suggest for now, although realisitically, i think that all three should probably be a little higher. Darcy somewhere near Ketchell and McGovern tier, Gans near Leonard, Pep and Co, and Walcott near Mickey Walker somewhere.

This just leaves my suggestions for holders as Mike Gibbons, Tommy Burns.
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Old 02-16-2013, 04:07 PM   #87
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Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

The **** indeed......only good fighters ?
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Old 02-16-2013, 04:08 PM   #88
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Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

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The ****?
yeah, i usually consider olivares as one of the best bantams ever, behind for certain jofre only, and gavilan certainly has top 5 argument at welter
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Old 02-16-2013, 04:57 PM   #89
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Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

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I'd struggle to name five welters definitely better than Gavilan. He has a solid argument for top 3 at the weight FFS.
robinson, leonard, napoles. other than that, you'd have to try not to put gavilan there
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Old 02-16-2013, 05:19 PM   #90
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Default Re: Help me sort out this top 50 pound for pound

Wl


EDIT
That was an accidental quick reply I must admit. So, for now, I'll just say; I really like all the names given so far. Just a matter of sorting them.
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