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Old 02-11-2008, 10:29 PM   #1
Russell
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Default So, if there was a Super Heavyweight Division...

What would you make the cut off point for weight?

Do you feel it would be a good idea?

Why or why not?
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Old 02-12-2008, 07:43 AM   #2
Mendoza
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Default Re: So, if there was a Super Heavyweight Division...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell
What would you make the cut off point for weight?

Do you feel it would be a good idea?

Why or why not?
Bad idea. A super heavyweight divison would cut the talent in half, and ruin the history of the heavyweight divison. We don't 4 super heavyweight champions and 4 heavyweight champions. That would be a mess. The title fights would be even worse.

Some beleive that such a divison is needed for the fighters under 210 pounds, but over 200 pounds. My suggestion to these guys is drop the weight, then re-hydrate like the lower weight classes do.

There may come a time when the heavyweight top ten is full of fighters Wlad's size and skills, and ranked guys under 225 pounds are rare.

If this happens, then I am for a creation of a super heavyweight divison. As it stands right now, Fighters in the 220's can be highly ranked or the #1 fighter in the divison.

I don't think we will see a heavyweight champion under 210 pounds in the next 10 years, but as I said before this guy can easily make weight at crusier weight. This is not to say a 200-210 pound fighter can't beat the best heavyweight out there. He can. But he's going to need good power, good skills, and a good chin.
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Old 02-12-2008, 07:47 AM   #3
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Default Re: So, if there was a Super Heavyweight Division...

when your that size weight doesnt make a massive difference and for the ones that it does they could proberly boil down to cruiser
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Old 02-12-2008, 08:27 AM   #4
fists of fury
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Default Re: So, if there was a Super Heavyweight Division...

IF there were to be such a division (and I strongly disagree with it) then I suppose the minimum weight would be about 215-220 lbs.

Of course, all it would mean is some undisciplined boxer that should weigh 218coming in at a fat, barely-trained 250 for the new division.
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Old 02-12-2008, 03:10 PM   #5
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Default Re: So, if there was a Super Heavyweight Division...

Suggestions along these lines have been occasionally made over the decades. During Carnera's heyday, the establishment of a so-called "dreadnought" division was famously proposed.

For the last few decades, it's been periodically supposed that no sub 200 pounder would ever again become a heavyweight champion. The Spinks brothers and RJJ have come along to scuttle that notion, and with the frequent dearths of talent at the top echelons of the heavyweights, it's guaranteed to happen again. A youthful Toney, in peak shape, absolutely could have feasibly been the number one HW for an extended period. (How much do you suppose he'd weigh, if his bodyfat was knocked down to, say, 5%? Do you believe that a 27 year old Toney in that kind of condition would be an inferior heavyweight to the bloated weeble who has competed well in that division at the age he actually has?)

Not only do I think there's no cause to install yet another division, I feel that cruiserweight is a bastard division which should be scrapped. It would hardly be missed.
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Old 02-12-2008, 03:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: So, if there was a Super Heavyweight Division...

[quote=Lobotomy]Suggestions along these lines have been occasionally made over the decades. During Carnera's heyday, the establishment of a so-called "dreadnought" division was famously proposed.

For the last few decades, it's been periodically supposed that no sub 200 pounder would ever again become a heavyweight champion. The Spinks brothers and RJJ have come along to scuttle that notion, and with the frequent dearths of talent at the top echelons of the heavyweights, it's guaranteed to happen again. A youthful Toney, in peak shape, absolutely could have feasibly been the number one HW for an extended period. (How much do you suppose he'd weigh, if his bodyfat was knocked down to, say, 5%? Do you believe that a 27 year old Toney in that kind of condition would be an inferior heavyweight to the bloated weeble who has competed well in that division at the age he actually has?)
quote]

A 200-225lb weight class would do good for the division - it would encourage many of the bigger guys to train harder to get their weight under a limit, which might end with the overweight walrus show of today.

RJJ and Michael, much less Leon Spinks were not the exceptions that proved the rule. Lennox Lewis would've KILLED RJJ if they fought, Spinks did indeed get demolished by the first great HW he fought, and Leon was an absolute joke that got lucky to steal his belt from a corpse.

RJJ was a phenom, yes, but any great heavyweight of a larger frame would paste him.
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:20 PM   #7
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: So, if there was a Super Heavyweight Division...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobotomy

For the last few decades, it's been periodically supposed that no sub 200 pounder would ever again become a heavyweight champion.
Periodically? You mean twice in 30 years time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobotomy
The Spinks brothers and RJJ have come along to scuttle that notion, and with the frequent dearths of talent at the top echelons of the heavyweights, it's guaranteed to happen again.
Jones had a great total of one fight against the least dangerous opponent. Nobody really gave him a chance against some of the bigger, harder punching guys like Lennox Lewis or the Klitschko's. And apparantly, neither did Jones, because he went right back to LHW. As for the Spinks brothers, Leon beat a geriatric Ali once (who shouldn't have been champion in the first place after losing to Norton III and Young) but went on to compile a journeyman's record. Michael, as great a LHW as he is, didn't do much at HW either. He beat an out of shape Holmes once, but despite Holmes being 36, still lost the rematch on a fair scorecard. Not to mention what happened when he faced a great heavyweight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobotomy
A youthful Toney, in peak shape, absolutely could have feasibly been the number one HW for an extended period.
That's a bit of a stretch, considering he couldn't even be the number one MW, LHW or CW for an extended period!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobotomy
(How much do you suppose he'd weigh, if his bodyfat was knocked down to, say, 5%? Do you believe that a 27 year old Toney in that kind of condition would be an inferior heavyweight to the bloated weeble who has competed well in that division at the age he actually has?)
And how well do you think the Toney that got knocked down by Johnson or Jones is going to take Peter's, Rahman's or Klitschko's punches? Why do you think he declined a Klitschko fight offer, from both of them on different occasions when he was in desperate need for one?
Probably the result of the fight would resemble your nickname.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobotomy
Not only do I think there's no cause to install yet another division, I feel that cruiserweight is a bastard division which should be scrapped. It would hardly be missed.
I agree, a SHW division wouldn't add much. However, the cruiserweight division is very interesting today. Haye, Mormeck, Maccarinelli, Bell, Cunningham and Adamek are all interesting fighters and they fight each other.

Without the cruiserweight division, there is a gigantic gap between light heavyweight and heavyweight. Times have changed; heavyweights are no longer around 190lbs.

Last edited by ChrisPontius; 02-12-2008 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 02-12-2008, 06:02 PM   #8
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Default Re: So, if there was a Super Heavyweight Division...

i don't think that boxing in general needs to be diluted any further. There are a lot of heavyweight fighters who could easily train down below 200lbs, they would be fighting at a proposed superheavy limit anyway, but if they did so they would have to add on needless and pointless weight in order to do it.

Looking at recent history (we will say 25 years)
you had
holmes at 220
Spinks at a weight trained 200
Tyson at a peak of 220
Holyfield at a weight trained 215
Moorer at a weight trained 215

Douglas at 230
Bowe at 235
Lewis at 240
Wlad at 240

And it is entirely possible that Ibragimov, Povetkin could do well against Wlad.

If the division has nobody as its top guy below 235 for the next 15 years maybe then we can talk. I don't see that dominance above that weight has been established.

I think a better agrument can be made for the return of 15 round championship rounds, causing more fighters to increase cardio training and lose some pounds.
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Old 02-12-2008, 06:07 PM   #9
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Default Re: So, if there was a Super Heavyweight Division...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Periodically? You mean twice in 30 years time?


Jones had a great total of one fight against the least dangerous opponent. Nobody really gave him a chance against some of the bigger, harder punching guys like Lennox Lewis or the Klitschko's. And apparantly, neither did Jones, because he went right back to LHW. As for the Spinks brothers, Leon beat a geriatric Ali once (who shouldn't have been champion in the first place after losing to Norton III and Young) but went on to compile a journeyman's record. Michael, as great a LHW as he is, didn't do much at HW either. He beat an out of shape Holmes once, but despite Holmes being 36, still lost the rematch on a fair scorecard. Not to mention what happened when he faced a great heavyweight.


That's a bit of a stretch, considering he couldn't even be the number one MW, LHW or CW for an extended period!


And how well do you think the Toney that got knocked down by Johnson or Jones is going to take Peter's, Rahman's or Klitschko's punches? Why do you think he declined a Klitschko fight offer, from both of them on different occasions when he was in desperate need for one?

I agree, a SHW division wouldn't add much. However, the cruiserweight division is very interesting today. Haye, Mormeck, Maccarinelli, Bell, Cunningham and Adamek are all interesting fighters and they fight each other.

Without the cruiserweight division, there is a gigantic gap between light heavyweight and heavyweight. Times have changed; heavyweights are no longer around 190lbs.
I agree with all of these points.
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Old 02-12-2008, 06:09 PM   #10
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Default Re: So, if there was a Super Heavyweight Division...

There will be a day when a new weight class for superheavies is established, no doubt.

Just as the ~190lb heavyweights of the pre-Liston area have been replaced by the 200+ heavyweights of the 1960s and 1970s who were then in turn replaced by the 220+ superheavyweights of the 1980s to present, big men are getting more and more skilled.

It may take fifty years, but the average size of contender-level heavyweights will eventually reach the Lewis/Klitschko level.
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Old 02-12-2008, 06:14 PM   #11
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Default Re: So, if there was a Super Heavyweight Division...

the idea of heavyweight champions ever really being below 200lbs is kind of a myth. Plus, with modern training (and knowing that they would be fighting larger guys where keeping on weight would be a benefit) I think you could safely add more than a couple of lbs to more than a couple previous fighters.
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Old 02-12-2008, 06:19 PM   #12
Russell
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Default Re: So, if there was a Super Heavyweight Division...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langford
i don't think that boxing in general needs to be diluted any further. There are a lot of heavyweight fighters who could easily train down below 200lbs, they would be fighting at a proposed superheavy limit anyway, but if they did so they would have to add on needless and pointless weight in order to do it.

Looking at recent history (we will say 25 years)
you had
holmes at 220
Spinks at a weight trained 200
Tyson at a peak of 220
Holyfield at a weight trained 215
Moorer at a weight trained 215

Douglas at 230
Bowe at 235
Lewis at 240
Wlad at 240
220 seems a little high for Tyson.
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Old 02-12-2008, 06:22 PM   #13
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Default Re: So, if there was a Super Heavyweight Division...

I am in favor of a 300 pound weight divsion. Who is with me.
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Old 02-12-2008, 06:25 PM   #14
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Default Re: So, if there was a Super Heavyweight Division...

*Raises Hand*

COOOOOOOREY T-REX SANNNNDERS.
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Old 02-12-2008, 06:26 PM   #15
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Default Re: So, if there was a Super Heavyweight Division...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell
220 seems a little high for Tyson.
not really. he fought some of his best fights within a couple of pounds of that.
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