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Old 02-22-2013, 12:33 AM   #1
pugilisticteen
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Default RE: Shoulder rolling + Have I started to late

Hi all, Im 17 and have only been boxing for 5 months yet I and everybody at my gym says it feels like ive been there years (ive settled really quickly) my coaches constantly say they are really impressed in my ability, I try to not let it get to my head as im still a novice. I think I have natural ability though, skills are handspeed, parrying then countering and I think I can take a punch well. I had my first fight already but I lost to a more experienced fighter, I take pride in the fact even though I was DRENCHED in blood (the worst it could get) I still came forward fighting with no standing 8 (I was not supposed to fight this guy as well).

I have a couple questions, from day one until now I have a natural habit to shoulder roll when someone counters me, If I shoot the jab and they come back I instantly bring the shoulder in, my coach is trying so hard to break the habit because he says I could lose points as I could get hit, but im yet to get hit when doing it so should I listen to him?

And finally im 17, I have found my true passion in Boxing, through choice I will never stop. I love to train lol but despite doing it because I love it, im scared I wont achieve my dreams of turning pro because I started at this age, theres a few pro's at my gym. Im at the most average weight, 63-66kg so many Boxers have done this since they was kids so logically they are years ahead of me, even If I continue to develop as quick as I am. I go to a decent gym, but ive decided when I can ill go to one of the best in London who can harness potential correctly if I continue to lose. So 1. should I stop the shoulder roll in the Ammy's? 2. realistically have I started late? I think I just caught the last train :/ I Box because I would love it, and I hope to turn my love into a career, If its not realistic I would be gutted.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:55 AM   #2
StillWill
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Default Re: Shoulder rolling + Have I started to late

takes 3 years to become a complete fighter

17 is a fine age to start and go pro later. many world champions who have started later

listen to your coach
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:21 AM   #3
twinwonw
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Default Re: Shoulder rolling + Have I started to late

Don't worry bro Im 17 as well, but been training for little over a year, just keep working hard and stay dedicated and you'll find yourself in competitions soon if you keep up the good work.

EDIT*, didnt see the part that you already had a fight, and as for your first loss don't worry about it just learn from that fight and like you said you were going against much more experienced fighter, but still gave a good fight. And as for the shoulder roll I would try to break that habit unless you have great reflexes and you are a orthodox. I'm a southpaw and was using shoulder roll naturally, but I kept getting tagged with punches so I had to train myself to keep my both hands up for months to break the habit. And good luck

Last edited by twinwonw; 02-22-2013 at 01:24 AM. Reason: mistake error
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:35 AM   #4
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Default Re: Shoulder rolling + Have I started to late

Firstly, congrats on finding your passion In terms of starting late I can name a good few world champions and greats who started late. Larry Holmes springs to mind. He was 19 I think. Hasim Rahman (knocked out Lennox Lewis) started at 20. And of course today's best middleweight Sergio Martinez didn't start till about 21 so you're in a good position at 17 if you do infact have good natural ability.

Keep a positive attitude. Don't let anyone tell you're too old to make it. Even if you're a little behind your peers because of the experience gap, that's okay. You may pick up losses along the way against guys who are simply more experienced but just learn from them. Never get discouraged or think you should pack it in - even if you were stopped (I've been there).

As for the shoulder roll thing, I guess we're very similar. Lol I had the exact same habit. I would raise it to block a counter punch. You'll get away with it for now but against more experienced guys you won't. I fought a 7 time Irish champion last year when I only had about 15 fights and I lost that fight 12-3 (good enough considering his record and my manager wanted to pull me out). But one of the things that I did really wrong was that roll. I would fire off a jab and he would evade it and come back with his right - which I would block with my shoulder, but by the time I was in position to come back with a shot he was long gone because because he knew I was trying to counter so all he had to do was step back out of range. That's just one example. Pressure fighters with quick hands will also find openings through your guard.

Look at some of the best amateur boxers today; Vasyl Lomanchenko, Robeisy Ramirez, and from your own country Luke Cambell. All of them use a mixture of good footwork and a high guard to hit and not get hit. Shoulder rolling can suit a slow paced fight like in the pro's but the amateur's are about high intesity and point scoring. Whatever happens good luck with your career
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:10 AM   #5
outtieDrake
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Default Re: Shoulder rolling + Have I started to late

keep the hands up like winky wright or saul alvarez. adopt a basic textbook style 1st than later down the road develop a style. it will prevent damage at best. many fighters lose their chin due to gym wars than actual fights long before. I have a permanent damaged flat nose from having my nose broken in an amateur fight , i'm way done with boxing all together but i got permanent damage that could have been avoided had i been smarter.

The age is just right btw.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:28 AM   #6
greynotsoold
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Default Re: Shoulder rolling + Have I started to late

Amateur boxing has a lot of stupid rules...If you intend to pursue a pro career then under no circumstances quit using your shoulder; over time you'll develope the timing to counter off of it. In this dark and dreary age of boxing, the shoulder roll is treated like some magical thing that only a select chosen few can do. In reality, for many many years- until everybody got on board the square up high hands bandwagon- that was THE basis of introductory boxing defense.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:38 AM   #7
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Default Re: Shoulder rolling + Have I started to late

Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
Amateur boxing has a lot of stupid rules...If you intend to pursue a pro career then under no circumstances quit using your shoulder; over time you'll develope the timing to counter off of it. In this dark and dreary age of boxing, the shoulder roll is treated like some magical thing that only a select chosen few can do. In reality, for many many years- until everybody got on board the square up high hands bandwagon- that was THE basis of introductory boxing defense.
I was on a forum a few years ago called "Tyson Talk" and its all guys who talk about Mike Tyson and almost nothing else.

The one thread was "Why did old timers keep that left hand down?"

the general consensus was "because they were stupid".
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:49 AM   #8
benebox
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Default Re: Shoulder rolling + Have I started to late

I'm 26, have smoked since I was 15 and been a heavy drinker / drug taker since I about 18. I have no boxing experience. Is it too late for me to try to become the undisputed MW world chapion of the world?
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:51 AM   #9
sugar_boy
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Default Re: Shoulder rolling + Have I started to late

Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
Amateur boxing has a lot of stupid rules...If you intend to pursue a pro career then under no circumstances quit using your shoulder; over time you'll develope the timing to counter off of it. In this dark and dreary age of boxing, the shoulder roll is treated like some magical thing that only a select chosen few can do. In reality, for many many years- until everybody got on board the square up high hands bandwagon- that was THE basis of introductory boxing defense.
That's true. Truth be told, it is mainly due to amateur rules that I had to adopt the two handed blocking method. I was constantly called by refs for using my shoulder when an opponent lunged in with an attack. Stupid rule as it's not MY fault that an opponent lunges in rather than keep a measured distance

Whilst I stated my disapproval of the shoulder roll in amateur boxing, I would certainly applaud it in a professional ring. Amateur rules, pace and scoring system just seem to work against the technique, which is a pity as it's now a lost art.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:52 AM   #10
sugar_boy
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Default Re: Shoulder rolling + Have I started to late

Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
Amateur boxing has a lot of stupid rules...If you intend to pursue a pro career then under no circumstances quit using your shoulder; over time you'll develope the timing to counter off of it. In this dark and dreary age of boxing, the shoulder roll is treated like some magical thing that only a select chosen few can do. In reality, for many many years- until everybody got on board the square up high hands bandwagon- that was THE basis of introductory boxing defense.
That's true. Truth be told, it is mainly due to amateur rules that I had to adopt the two handed blocking method. I was constantly called by refs for using my shoulder when an opponent lunged in with an attack. Stupid rule as it's not MY fault that an opponent lunges in rather than keep a measured distance

Whilst I stated my disapproval of the shoulder roll in amateur boxing, I would certainly applaud it in a professional ring. Amateur rules, pace and scoring system just seem to work against the technique, which is a pity as it's now a lost art.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:14 AM   #11
jasper2005
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Default Re: Shoulder rolling + Have I started to late

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look at ken norton amazing defense not some stiff nowdays fighter
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:31 AM   #12
Jdsm
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Default Re: Shoulder rolling + Have I started to late

I did a detailed post on the shoulder roll a while back. Here it is, incase you give a ****:

"The 'philly shell' is quite a complex style with so many subtleties and variations that it's very hard to break down. It is often refered to as the 'shoulder roll defense' because the shoulder roll is one of the defensive skills that is incorporated by most boxers that use this style; however the shoulder roll is just that, one defensive skill that fits particularly well in to this style.

Since most of the interest in this style is from a defensive stand point, I will start with the defensive benefits of using the philly shell. The first defensive skill I'll talk about is the shoulder roll. The shoulder roll is very effective for defending against the orthodox right hand, specifically the straight right. Not only does it ensure that the chin is well protected from the shot, but if executed effectively, it sets up clean counterpunching opportunities.

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3:10 (3:17 for slow motion) shows perfect execution of the shoulder roll by Mayweather. Not only does he protect his chin and deflect the shot away with the shoulder, he comes back with a nice short shot of his own, which Mosley is wide open for. With the shoulder roll, the orthodox fighter will turn his shoulders clockwise as the punch is anticipated and as this is done, it also takes the right hand out of the opponent's sight, which makes it a lot harder for them to defend against a counter that they've already been opened up for.

Further examples of the shoulder roll - counter right hand being executed:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Another defensive benefit of the philly shell is that when a fighter is backed up against the ropes, because of the hand position, they don't restrict their own vision and this allows them to parry, slip, roll and counter against punches.

A few examples of this:

8:25
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[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Due to the hands are held in the philly shell, so many defensive moves can be executed with minimal effort and energy expendature.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

At around 1:45 Floyd Mayweather demonstrates how with very, very small movements shots can be blocked and present huge counter opportunities.

Another huge benefits is how easily the weight can be transferred from defensive-to-offensive transitions. If you look at the previous examples, you will notice that often fighters when rolling the right hand, they will transfer the weight more on to their back foot, which is beneficial for the actual counterpunch itself. Also note what happens to the hips when a fighter executes the shoulder roll and how that is going to add to the biomechanical advantage when counter punching.

One of the most notorious limitations of this style from a defensive point of view is when facing a southpaw, it can leave you very vulnerable to the straight left hand.

Since there is so much involved in this style, I'll make another post with the offensive benefits and if anybody wants me to try and explain further any defensive specifics, just ask. I'm not great at writing out long break downs"
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:32 PM   #13
MrSmall
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Default Re: Shoulder rolling + Have I started to late

never too late
I had the same question when I was 17, I am 24 now, and it is never too late to do anything. Maybe too late to win the Olympics by 18, but you get what I'm saying. You can box for another 17 years as an amateur.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:12 AM   #14
viru§™
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Default Re: Shoulder rolling + Have I started to late

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Originally Posted by StillWill View Post
takes 3 years to become a complete fighter
Lol. This is just dumb. Maybe it was a joke?

The "have I started too late" question is the most asenine question asked on this board.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:29 AM   #15
StillWill
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Default Re: Shoulder rolling + Have I started to late

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Lol. This is just dumb. Maybe it was a joke?

The "have I started too late" question is the most asenine question asked on this board.
If you train seriously(not weekend warrior) and fight often in three years you will have settled into your style as a fighter and should be able to know how to fight against most styles

rule of thumb but more or less. how exactly is that dumb?
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