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Old 12-14-2007, 09:15 AM   #31
dmt
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champ with Worst Opponents?

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Originally Posted by Woddy
Miske was not a legitimate challenge. He was coming off a string of bad fights, and Dempsey gave him a title shot out of shear sympathy for his illness and bad financial situation.
Miske had a little bit a losing streak when he fought Dempsey (although the Greb decision in an nd fight was controversial) but his losses were generally to elite fighter). He had a massive streak afterwards beating excellent contenders.

here, read this article on Miske:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:16 AM   #32
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champ with Worst Opponents?

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
What had Byrd done tho?
who do you see a better fighter though: Grant or Byrd? In all honesty Byrd would rate as an all time top 50 heavyweight and Grant wouldn't. What is a better legacy fight for Lewis?
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:19 AM   #33
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champ with Worst Opponents?

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Originally Posted by janitor
It is no diferent today.

More people wanted to see Lennox Lewis fight Michael Grant than wanted to see him fight Chris Byrd. In hindsight the latter would have been a better legacy fight.

There will always be public momentum for certain matchups that will jnot look logical on boxrec in 100 years.
I agree, but the example you provided is mixing up the timeline a bit.

At that point in time, Byrd had just gotten clobbered in 5 by Ibeabuchi. Combined with his crowd-unfriendly style, there was no clamour for him to fight Lewis in 2000. The surprise result against Vitali (shortly before Lewis-Grant) might've raised his profile but no-one in the States at the time gave a damn about either Vitali or the WBO belt, and Byrd then went and got belted around for 12 rounds by Wlad in his next fight anyway. Now, Byrd in 2002 or 3, that's a stronger case.

The more apt comparison for that first title defence for Lewis is between Grant to Ruiz. And surely that can only be in Grant's favour, given that Ruiz's profile consisted of the infamous nineteen-second fight against Tua and not much else.

Hindsight is 20/20, but there's no accounting for that...
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:21 AM   #34
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champ with Worst Opponents?

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
When he was champion Dempsey fought some decent challengers.

He fought some has-beens on the way up, but some tough quality fighters among them.
None of Dempsey's opponents were the quality of Roper or Wepner for example. The public wasn't going to pay money for fighters with poor records or who were not capable

For example Carpeinter was the heavyweight champion of Europe, so he deserved a shot. And while he was 18 or so lbs lighter, other heavyweight champs fought fighters much lighter then themselves. Gibbons was ranked among the top 10. Miske had a large number of wins over top contenders, even if he was coming off a few losses. Fripo, while crude, was powerful and tough, and good enough for a title shot. And Brennan, who was considered a notch below the likes of Miske etc, looks very good on film. None of these guys were unworthy of title shots. Then later Dempsey fought Tunney who was the #1 guy. None of these were "soft" or "easy" pickings.
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:25 AM   #35
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champ with Worst Opponents?

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Originally Posted by dmt
who do you see a better fighter though: Grant or Byrd? In all honesty Byrd would rate as an all time top 50 heavyweight and Grant wouldn't. What is a better legacy fight for Lewis?
Why should Lewis have fought Byrd over Grant tho? What's doing that Lewis should have fought Byrd instead of Grant at that time?

How do you know Grant wouldn't have done better things if not for being axed by Lewis?
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:32 AM   #36
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champ with Worst Opponents?

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Why should Lewis have fought Byrd over Grant tho? What's doing that Lewis should have fought Byrd instead of Grant at that time?

How do you know Grant wouldn't have done better things if not for being axed by Lewis?
look i am not arguing that Lewis "ducked" Byrd or anything, and i do think he would have won over Byrd comfortable. And i, like others, was not even sure at the time who to consider a better fighter. All i am saying is that the public can sometimes be wrong . The comment from the poster that the public were decieved or wrong only in those times isn't wxactyly true
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:43 AM   #37
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champ with Worst Opponents?

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Originally Posted by dmt
look i am not arguing that Lewis "ducked" Byrd or anything, and i do think he would have won over Byrd comfortable. And i, like others, was not even sure at the time who to consider a better fighter. All i am saying is that the public can sometimes be wrong . The comment from the poster that the public were decieved or wrong only in those times isn't wxactyly true
To be honest i don't think your point is in context or extent. Lewis fought that many names and top fighters of his era it's not funny. The only top guy he didn't fight was Bowe, who refused to fight him at one time. As for Byrd, he's little loss on the Lewis resume. You can't fight every single guy, tho Lewis came close. His resume vs Dempsey's isn't even close.
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:45 AM   #38
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champ with Worst Opponents?

I can see what Dmt means though, and if anything the hype today for fighters can particularly lead to a false impression amongst the casual audience. A highlight reel of big knockouts will always look great, even if the victims are in reality much less impressive.

It's just that comparing Grant vs Byrd for that period in time was a bad example, no offense intended! It just wasn't a good time for Byrd, it wasn't until the wins against Tua and Holyfield that Byrd got that credibility back.

The tricky thing for any trainer is - when does a promising but untested fighter make that step up? It has to happen at some point, you have to see if they sink or swim, so when do you do it?
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:50 AM   #39
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champ with Worst Opponents?

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
To be honest i don't think your point is in context or extent. Lewis fought that many names and top fighters of his era it's not funny. The only top guy he didn't fight was Bowe, who refused to fight him at one time. As for Byrd, he's little loss on the Lewis resume. You can't fight every single guy, tho Lewis came close. His resume vs Dempsey's isn't even close.
Totally.

Dempsey was a good champion, and I don't want to turn this into another jack bashing session, but there's no getting around the fact that Lennox beat way more ranked opponents, defended his title more times and was far more active. I don't care how anyone tries to refute this, I will never be convinced that Dempsey's legacy even remotely close to Lewis's. I've heard people try to package this in so many different ways, " Jack had more first round knockouts than anyone", Jack was the greatest puncher of all time" " jack would have been a nightmare for anyone head to head".

The fact is, I really don't care. We've all been through this going on what now? Two three weeks and counting? We've talked about his competition, his defenses, the fact that he sat on the title for 3 years and didn't fight Harry Wills. Pardon my French, but what the **** more is there to talk about? This guy was good, but he simply did not have the reign or legacy that Lewis had.
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:55 AM   #40
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champ with Worst Opponents?

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
To be honest i don't think your point is in context or extent. Lewis fought that many names and top fighters of his era it's not funny. The only top guy he didn't fight was Bowe, who refused to fight him at one time. As for Byrd, he's little loss on the Lewis resume. You can't fight every single guy, tho Lewis came close. His resume vs Dempsey's isn't even close.
i did not even claim that. All i said was the public is not always right. God does everything have to turn into a anti Dempsey session
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:58 AM   #41
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champ with Worst Opponents?

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Originally Posted by DamonD
I can see what Dmt means though, and if anything the hype today for fighters can particularly lead to a false impression amongst the casual audience. A highlight reel of big knockouts will always look great, even if the victims are in reality much less impressive.

It's just that comparing Grant vs Byrd for that period in time was a bad example, no offense intended! It just wasn't a good time for Byrd, it wasn't until the wins against Tua and Holyfield that Byrd got that credibility back.
After which Lewis only had one more career fight. Lewis had also soundly beaten both Tua and Holyfield prior to Byrd as well.

Beating Byrd at the time would have meant little, and if Lewis ravaged him he may not have did what he did later anyway if you follow. Perhaps this was the case with Grant, we will never know.
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Old 12-14-2007, 10:00 AM   #42
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champ with Worst Opponents?

I for one have had enough of this debating about Dempsey. I'm seriously thinking about taking a few weeks off from the forum and coming back after the new year, when you guys have picked another topic to beat the livin' shit out of.
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Old 12-14-2007, 10:01 AM   #43
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champ with Worst Opponents?

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Originally Posted by dmt
i did not even claim that. All i said was the public is not always right. God does everything have to turn into a anti Dempsey session
You're oversensitive (regarding Dempsey for some reason) and take it to heart too much. It's a forum for goodness sakes. It takes all opinions to form a consensus and guys like Chris, myself and Dinner happen to think Dempsey is overrated, certainly resume wise.
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Old 12-14-2007, 10:02 AM   #44
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champ with Worst Opponents?

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Totally.

Dempsey was a good champion, and I don't want to turn this into another jack bashing session, but there's no getting around the fact that Lennox beat way more ranked opponents, defended his title more times and was far more active. I don't care how anyone tries to refute this, I will never be convinced that Dempsey's legacy even remotely close to Lewis's. I've heard people try to package this in so many different ways, " Jack had more first round knockouts than anyone", Jack was the greatest puncher of all time" " jack would have been a nightmare for anyone head to head".

The fact is, I really don't care. We've all been through this going on what now? Two three weeks and counting? We've talked about his competition, his defenses, the fact that he sat on the title for 3 years and didn't fight Harry Wills. Pardon my French, but what the **** more is there to talk about? This guy was good, but he simply did not have the reign or legacy that Lewis had.
And that's it in a nutshell mate.
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Old 12-14-2007, 10:02 AM   #45
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champ with Worst Opponents?

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
I for one have had enough of this debating about Dempsey. I'm seriously thinking about taking a few weeks off from the forum and coming back after the new year, when you guys have picked another topic to beat the livin' shit out of.
Just ignore the topics, simple mate. There's myriads of threads not pertaining to Dempsey.
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