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Old 02-26-2013, 10:43 PM   #1
dealt_with
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Default Train for boxing competition, not for recovery

Often you hear that you need to perform aerobic work to help recovery between punches/rounds etc.
If your training is performed at the right intensity for your sport then your body takes care of recovery, it learns how to recover from that intensity as well as it possibly can. Repeat sprints improve aerobic capacity regardless. Here's an interesting study:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

If you think about the bioenergetic requirements of a high intensity sport like boxing then you have to realise why the common practice of doing long slow roadwork to improve fitness is useless and possibly detrimental to performance.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:54 PM   #2
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Default Re: Train for boxing competition, not for recovery

alright dealt..i know you dont like me...

but serious question....would you suggest someone jump straight into high intensity interval type stuff (for boxing rounds) or do you think some more aerobic type activity could be useful as a way to build up general conditioning.

with running for boxing, at least for new guys i always thought it might be good to start with more distance stuff than get the higher intensity stuff after a month or so...but i really dont claim to have ever looked at any of the studies on it.
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:08 AM   #3
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Default Re: Train for boxing competition, not for recovery

Everybody knows that high intensity work improves recovery and aerobic fitness. But...hockey players don't have weight classes. And nothing says that a run has to be long and slow.

Reference: I played soccer for 10 years before I ever boxed. Did 3-4 mile interval runs 3-5 times a week in my last couple years. (I've never really done long, slow distance except when I'm coming back from a layoff or cutting weight.) I really don't have the focus for distance so I did interval runs just because it was easier even before I knew why intervals were so awesome.

Anecdotal evidence, but it's all I got: I've had pneumonia 4 times. Every time you get it, your aerobic potential decreases and you cannot get it back (lose lung tissue or something...forget how it was explained to me). The last time I had it they tested my vO2 or something and told me that even while I had pneumonia my lung capacity was higher than it should be for a person my size. A year later (after I had taken up boxing) I was getting a health screening at OCS and had to have my pulse taken 3 times before they realized that yes, it is possible and ok to have a resting heart rate in the low 40's.

My main advantage is recovery. After a minute's rest I usually feel completely recovered (unless I'm being beaten up). Once I noticed that I had a recovery advantage over most people, I started going extremely hard at the end of each round to up the intensity and make the other guy go back hurt/tired, because I knew that I'd recover quicker.

What I'm saying is many things can work. I agree that LSD running isn't optimal, but most of it is done for weight reasons. I think that interval runs have their place (removing muscle soreness, improving recovery, and weight management). I think that most of the LSD running boxers do should be replaced by intervals.

The thing is, high intensity training can only be done every so often. You have more time than that in the day and you have the energy to do more, so if it isn't going to hurt you then why not do some intervals?
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:13 AM   #4
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Default Re: Train for boxing competition, not for recovery

i know from my own experience my best condition came when i was doing 2 minute interval sprints up hills..with 1 minute walks down...


having said that....when i started doing that i had built up a base by doing medium speed distance runs and short sprints.... but i guess i could have just started with 30 second sprints up the hill and than built up....
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:04 AM   #5
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Default Re: Train for boxing competition, not for recovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnstown View Post
alright dealt..i know you dont like me...

but serious question....would you suggest someone jump straight into high intensity interval type stuff (for boxing rounds) or do you think some more aerobic type activity could be useful as a way to build up general conditioning.

with running for boxing, at least for new guys i always thought it might be good to start with more distance stuff than get the higher intensity stuff after a month or so...but i really dont claim to have ever looked at any of the studies on it.
Nah instead of doing slow aerobic work that doesn't do much of anything you're better off doing heavy weight training to get you ready for intense intervals. Stronger muscles and connective tissues means that your body can handle more stress, strength training will improve your capacity for high intensity aerobic work more than running at an intensity below what you're getting ready to train for. Aerobic training isn't going to do anything for injury prevention because you're training to be at a level below what you're about to do. If your base is strength then your body can support whatever is thrown at it, you can exercise at a greater intensity for longer so you'll improve your VO2 and lactate tolerance faster, and to a higher level.
The whole aerobic base thing is out of date and doesn't really make any sense at all if you understand bioenergetics.

The reason why old people struggle so much isn't because of their reduced VO2max, their reduced VO2max is a side effect of not being strong enough to move their bodies. It's that reduced muscle and strength that is the main cause of problems as we age. Strength should be your base for everything, it supports every other aspect of fitness.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:12 AM   #6
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Default Re: Train for boxing competition, not for recovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillSomething View Post
Everybody knows that high intensity work improves recovery and aerobic fitness. But...hockey players don't have weight classes. And nothing says that a run has to be long and slow.

Reference: I played soccer for 10 years before I ever boxed. Did 3-4 mile interval runs 3-5 times a week in my last couple years. (I've never really done long, slow distance except when I'm coming back from a layoff or cutting weight.) I really don't have the focus for distance so I did interval runs just because it was easier even before I knew why intervals were so awesome.

Anecdotal evidence, but it's all I got: I've had pneumonia 4 times. Every time you get it, your aerobic potential decreases and you cannot get it back (lose lung tissue or something...forget how it was explained to me). The last time I had it they tested my vO2 or something and told me that even while I had pneumonia my lung capacity was higher than it should be for a person my size. A year later (after I had taken up boxing) I was getting a health screening at OCS and had to have my pulse taken 3 times before they realized that yes, it is possible and ok to have a resting heart rate in the low 40's.

My main advantage is recovery. After a minute's rest I usually feel completely recovered (unless I'm being beaten up). Once I noticed that I had a recovery advantage over most people, I started going extremely hard at the end of each round to up the intensity and make the other guy go back hurt/tired, because I knew that I'd recover quicker.

What I'm saying is many things can work. I agree that LSD running isn't optimal, but most of it is done for weight reasons. I think that interval runs have their place (removing muscle soreness, improving recovery, and weight management). I think that most of the LSD running boxers do should be replaced by intervals.

The thing is, high intensity training can only be done every so often. You have more time than that in the day and you have the energy to do more, so if it isn't going to hurt you then why not do some intervals?
You lose weight based on calories in versus calories out, going for long runs to lose weight instead of just ad******g your diet means that you're compromising the anaerobic parts of your training for no reason and changing the composition of your muscle fibres to something that isn't optimal for your sport if you do it too often. If you need a low intensity day you're far better off doing some shadow boxing to improve your skills and co-ordination without stressing your body and it's going to be far more useful than going for a long jog.
Your post confuses me a little, are you saying that intervals aren't high intensity training?
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:30 AM   #7
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Default Re: Train for boxing competition, not for recovery

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Originally Posted by dealt_with View Post
You lose weight based on calories in versus calories out, going for long runs to lose weight instead of just ad******g your diet means that you're compromising the anaerobic parts of your training for no reason and changing the composition of your muscle fibres to something that isn't optimal for your sport if you do it too often. If you need a low intensity day you're far better off doing some shadow boxing to improve your skills and co-ordination without stressing your body and it's going to be far more useful than going for a long jog.
Your post confuses me a little, are you saying that intervals aren't high intensity training?
no..i just mean when you are totally out of shape..its hard to push yourself for any length of time at a high intensity....hence my thinking that it could be good to do some distance to try to "ease" into it...but i again...not something i have ever really looked at.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:30 AM   #8
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Default Re: Train for boxing competition, not for recovery

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Originally Posted by dealt_with View Post
You lose weight based on calories in versus calories out, going for long runs to lose weight instead of just ad******g your diet means that you're compromising the anaerobic parts of your training for no reason and changing the composition of your muscle fibres to something that isn't optimal for your sport if you do it too often. If you need a low intensity day you're far better off doing some shadow boxing to improve your skills and co-ordination without stressing your body and it's going to be far more useful than going for a long jog.
Your post confuses me a little, are you saying that intervals aren't high intensity training?
I'm saying that running doesn't have to be a sprint workout or an LSD run, it can be something in between and it's worked well for me.

Additionally, most boxers work out twice a day. One would be a high intensity boxing or conditioning session, one would be a low-mid intensity run. The run gets rid of soreness and imo improves recovery capability. It knocks off a few calories and (supposedly?) kicks your metabolism up by making your body work early and late in the day.

What I'm saying is do your boxing and do your sprints but you can't do that sprinting every day. Additionally, high intensity conditioning sessions dramatically decrease your ability to perform your skillwork, which is another reason you can't do them all that often.

Interval runs over a mid-distance are a happy medium that allows you to focus your energy on the work that matters most: boxing in the gym. If humans could do HIIT every day along with boxing workouts, there would be no argument. But you just can't live your life like that and compromises have to be made. Ideally, I'd say 2 days of sprints/4 days of intervals/1 day off (or an LSD run if you really like running).
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:51 AM   #9
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Default Re: Train for boxing competition, not for recovery

interesting convo
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:06 AM   #10
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Default Re: Train for boxing competition, not for recovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillSomething View Post
What I'm saying is many things can work. I agree that LSD running isn't optimal, but most of it is done for weight reasons. I think that interval runs have their place (removing muscle soreness, improving recovery, and weight management). I think that most of the LSD running boxers do should be replaced by intervals.

The thing is, high intensity training can only be done every so often. You have more time than that in the day and you have the energy to do more, so if it isn't going to hurt you then why not do some intervals?
I love running intervals. Intervals and hill sprints form the bulk of the cardio side of things for me. I don't always run regularly, but when I do, I do intervals and hill sprints

Between intervals and hill sprints you get so much bang for your buck as far as results vs time invested the only real reason I'd be adding in some LSD is if you really enjoy doing it or you find it helps your recovery.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dealt_with View Post
Strength should be your base for everything, it supports every other aspect of fitness.
This is something that it still surprises me that people neglect. If your body isn't strong you're fighting an uphill battle, and it's one you'll lose eventually, one way or the other.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:47 AM   #11
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Default Re: Train for boxing competition, not for recovery

Very interesting thread!

Thinking about when i boxed and we started every training with a 8 km run. 6 days a week
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:02 AM   #12
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Default Re: Train for boxing competition, not for recovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillSomething View Post
I'm saying that running doesn't have to be a sprint workout or an LSD run, it can be something in between and it's worked well for me.

Additionally, most boxers work out twice a day. One would be a high intensity boxing or conditioning session, one would be a low-mid intensity run. The run gets rid of soreness and imo improves recovery capability. It knocks off a few calories and (supposedly?) kicks your metabolism up by making your body work early and late in the day.

What I'm saying is do your boxing and do your sprints but you can't do that sprinting every day. Additionally, high intensity conditioning sessions dramatically decrease your ability to perform your skillwork, which is another reason you can't do them all that often.

Interval runs over a mid-distance are a happy medium that allows you to focus your energy on the work that matters most: boxing in the gym. If humans could do HIIT every day along with boxing workouts, there would be no argument. But you just can't live your life like that and compromises have to be made. Ideally, I'd say 2 days of sprints/4 days of intervals/1 day off (or an LSD run if you really like running).
What's the point of intervals if the work part isn't high intensity? That just defeats the purpose of interval training. Your sprints are your interval training. When you say intervals do you mean fartlek training? That is interval training and there's no way you should be doing that 4 days a week along with 2 sprint interval sessions.
No boxer should be performing high intensity conditioning or boxing sessions everyday either. If they are then that run in the evening is doing them no favours, as it's using up glycogen. Even on the highest carbohydrate diet you're going to burn out performing high intensity training everyday and have stress hormones eating away at your muscle mass (lowering your metabolism).
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:17 AM   #13
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Default Re: Train for boxing competition, not for recovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaas Montenegro View Post
Very interesting thread!

Thinking about when i boxed and we started every training with a 8 km run. 6 days a week
Most sports have old coaches who think "If you want fitness you gotta run for a long time". It doesn't make any sense at all, your body adapts to the demands placed on it, no more or no less. If your sport involves intermittent bursts of high intensity activity with short recovery periods then going for long runs isn't going to do anything, the long runs are just going to reduce your capacity for the high intensity part and it's that part that counts in competition.
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:29 AM   #14
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Default Re: Train for boxing competition, not for recovery

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Originally Posted by dealt_with View Post
Most sports have old coaches who think "If you want fitness you gotta run for a long time". It doesn't make any sense at all, your body adapts to the demands placed on it, no more or no less. If your sport involves intermittent bursts of high intensity activity with short recovery periods then going for long runs isn't going to do anything, the long runs are just going to reduce your capacity for the high intensity part and it's that part that counts in competition.
What about a sport like football (soccer). Would aerobic work be of benefit, seeing as you play more or less non stop for 90 min?
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:39 AM   #15
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So dealth with basically train at the type of rhythm/intensity as you're sport and you'll get the best results?
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