Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-13-2008, 06:34 AM   #16
JohnThomas1
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,090
vCash: 1000
Default Re: James Toney vs. Ken Norton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
A fighter as good as Norton? Norton is an overated jorneyman who got a title by joke, and is one of the biggest disgraces for IBHoF.
Yet Montell Griffin was a super fantastic fighter yada, yada. Give us a break mate. A past prime Norton gave pretty much a peak Larry Holmes all he could handle for 15 fantastic rounds, among other things. Or let me guess, heavyweight Jones and Toney beay Holmes too, right? Have a bit of damn respect
JohnThomas1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 02-13-2008, 07:04 AM   #17
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,632
vCash: 238
Default Re: James Toney vs. Ken Norton

Toney is not going to beat anyone by shutout decision when he throws 30 punches a round. Dinner had it right when he called him James "SD" Toney: he's always had a lot of close fights or losses to not-so-great fighters. Sam Peter didn't have half the boxing ability Toney has, yet he still beat him twice (once by shutout), pure on workrate. Norton is likely to do the same.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 07:19 AM   #18
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,616
vCash: 1210
Default Re: James Toney vs. Ken Norton

Several other fighters gave a more experienced and better version of Holmes all he could handle too. Should we include every one of the into IBHoF and claim them to be all time great? Why is Jimmy Young not in IBHoF (a much better and much more deserving fighter than Norton despite that ridiculous decision in Norton's favour), why no Doug Jones?
Norton is overrated like hell post-facto, whereas he was considered to be rather poor fighter and a disgrace because of the way he received the title, by contemporary experts. Only on the wave of Ali-praising, he got praised too and subsequently inducted into IBHoF, which is a f***ing joke.
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 07:24 AM   #19
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,771
vCash: 1000
Default Re: James Toney vs. Ken Norton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Shoutout decision for Toney.
Wow. Please explain. Norton was a very good jabber, an active puncher, and has little to feat about Toney's Power.

Norton UD seems very liekly.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 07:27 AM   #20
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,616
vCash: 1210
Default Re: James Toney vs. Ken Norton

I already explained.
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 07:33 AM   #21
JohnThomas1
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,090
vCash: 1000
Default Re: James Toney vs. Ken Norton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Several other fighters gave a more experienced and better version of Holmes all he could handle too.
Was it a better version of Holmes? Larry got quite a reputation for taking foes a bit lightly and the guys you hint at, Snipes, Witherspoon and Weaver were all considered to be on a hiding to nothing going into the bouts and were on the surface were hardly the sort of challenge to get Larry's blood boiling. On the other hand you can bet blood Holmes was fired up 100% going into his first ever title bout against Norton.

Quote:
Should we include every one of the into IBHoF and claim them to be all time great?
Well Norton has the Ali trilogy as well as a few other respectable wins, your statement is a knee jerk reaction that just isn't logical.

Quote:
Why is Jimmy Young not in IBHoF (a much better and much more deserving fighter than Norton despite that ridiculous decision in Norton's favour), why no Doug Jones?
Young might not have missed by much, but the thing is he DIDN'T get the nod over Ali. Who knows, if he did he may well have been there.

What did Jones do to get in there Senya? Seems a pretty silly comment.

Quote:
Norton is overrated like hell post-facto, whereas he was considered to be rather poor fighter and a disgrace because of the way he received the title, by contemporary experts.
It seems we have a hater in the house. He wasn't considered a poor fighter on the whole by contempory experts at all, but no doubt you know better than anyone else. Regardless i have plenty of readings on the man and he is quite well regarded.

Quote:
Only on the wave of Ali-praising, he got praised too and subsequently inducted into IBHoF, which is a f***ing joke.
Did Norton steal your dummy as a baby or something? Seems you really have some pent up anger at the man.

Little doubt he gets some extra milage out of the Ali events, but the fact is he has the runs on the board there and is a fukk of a lot better than you want to admit.

Last edited by RussianConcussion; 02-11-2007 at 07:27 PM.
JohnThomas1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 07:38 AM   #22
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,771
vCash: 1000
Default Re: James Toney vs. Ken Norton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
I already explained.
I see you called Norton a one-dimensional fighter? I suggest you watch him more often. Norton had a great jab, a good right, excellent body punching ability, good hand speed, good stamina, and a cross-armed mongoose style defense. Toney isn’t an aggressive-back you up type of fighter, which is the best to beat Norton.

Toney is a somewhat lazy fighter who likes to hang on the ropes and counter with his hook. In boxing, the type of punches that are countered as mostly hooks, not jabs or right crosses. Norton range and skills with strait punches, plus his activity and power behind his blows translate into him winning most of the rounds.

I think this pick is as strange as your Kessler vs Calzaghe pick where you thought Kessler would out jab Clazaghe. I think you’re a good poster, but some of your picks to me are odd. I know your a huge Roy Jones fan. Jones with his even shakier chin, smaller size, and less power in comparison to Norton. Jones had his way with Toney using similar tactics that Norton would.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 07:46 AM   #23
achillesthegreat
FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 18,269
vCash: 1000
Default Re: James Toney vs. Ken Norton

I'm positive Norton would win.
achillesthegreat is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 08:22 AM   #24
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,616
vCash: 1210
Default Re: James Toney vs. Ken Norton

Holmes got more experience at top level later in his career, he got better than he was by the point he met Norton.

Norton had lost 2 fights out of 3 with Ali. These are official results. He also lost the Holmes fight. Had the official decisions been different, he could be considered worthy indeed. Otherwise, like I said, Young is a more deserving fighter than Norton (wins over Ali, Foreman, 2x Lyle, Norton).

I posted before the results of the poll for the worst heavyweight titlists of all time by the Ring magazine writers about the time Norton finished his career.

I think IBHoF has discredited itself much enough, but inducting Norton was just too much. One SD win over injured past-prime Ali and one SD win over Jimmy Young being the main positive achievements of his career, is going too far overboard.
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 08:30 AM   #25
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,616
vCash: 1210
Default Re: James Toney vs. Ken Norton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
I see you called Norton a one-dimensional fighter? I suggest you watch him more often. Norton had a great jab, a good right, excellent body punching ability, good hand speed, good stamina, and a cross-armed mongoose style defense.
No variety whatsoever, no adaptability to styles that are problematic to him. He does the same several moves over and over in each round, not changing anything. When Ali started to move on his toes, Norton looked totally puzzled at what to do. Motivated Toney eats such primitive fighters alive.

Quote:
Toney isnít an aggressive-back you up type of fighter, which is the best to beat Norton.
Jimmy Young outpointed Norton, but was robbed of victory. Toney is much better fighter than Young.

Quote:
I know your a huge Roy Jones fan.
Why does everyone start talking about Jones whenever they are debating anything with me, even though the subject being discussed has nothing to do with Jones whatsoever?

Quote:
Jones with his even shakier chin, smaller size, and less power in comparison to Norton. Jones had his way with Toney using similar tactics that Norton would.
Jones with even shakier chin than who? Than Norton? Good joke, but you forgot to put in a smiley. Norton is so much different and inferior to Jones in just about everything except size, it's not even funny to think he could ever repeat what Jones had done.
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 09:35 AM   #26
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,771
vCash: 1000
Default Re: James Toney vs. Ken Norton

Quote:
Senya13 No variety whatsoever, no adaptability to styles that are problematic to him. He does the same several moves over and over in each round, not changing anything. When Ali started to move on his toes, Norton looked totally puzzled at what to do. Motivated Toney eats such primitive fighters alive.
I disagree on the variety remark, but since Toney never danced on his toes as Ali did, it is a non-issue in this fight.

Quote:
Jimmy Young outpointed Norton, but was robbed of victory. Toney is much better fighter than Young.
It depends on how you score fights. If you go for power punching and aggression, Norton wins. If you go for defense, less punches landed, and clean counters, then Young won. I think Norton edged out Jimmy Young, and make no mistake about it, Young at his best was much harder to hit than Toney was. Young had excellent head movement, and top reflexes.

Quote:
Why does everyone start talking about Jones whenever they are debating anything with me, even though the subject being discussed has nothing to do with Jones whatsoever?
I was using the Jones fight as an example. A past his prime guys like Jirov won rounds vs Toney. Journeyman like Teiberi most certainly beat Toney. Tiberri was robbed much more than Jimmy Young was vs Norton. That much I am sure of. In addition, Toney's heavyweight accomplishment were tainted with steriods.

Quote:
Jones with even shakier chin than who? Than Norton? Good joke, but you forgot to put in a smiley. Norton is so much different and inferior to Jones in just about everything except size, it's not even funny to think he could ever repeat what Jones had done.
Yes,Roy Jones easily has a shakier chin than Norton. Jones was Ko'd by one punch early in round two, by Tarver and badly KO'd and down for at least a minute vs Johnson. Norton got up when Foreman and Shavers hit him flush. He was TKO'd after, but compare and contrast the blows form Foreman and Shavers vs Tarver vs Johnson if you dare.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 09:49 AM   #27
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,616
vCash: 1210
Default Re: James Toney vs. Ken Norton

Aggressiveness has to be effective to be scored. Young clearly won that fight.

Jones was never dropped by nobodies the way Norton was several times.
Jones got up before the count of 10 in Tarver, and took two flush punches he didn't see from Tarver (in the same round), and stayed on his feet and fought back. He took another flush punch to the jaw from Tarver at the bell in the 12th round of the first fight, and only staggered a little bit, whereas Norton I'm sure would be dropped for a knockdown from such punch. Jones took a couple of clean punches to the head from John Ruiz, and didn't look hurt even a little bit.
Norton has one of the worst jaws of all heavyweights who ever held a major title (only blown-up light-heavyweight Patterson "competes" with him).

Jirov won several rounds vs Toney by staying on top of him every round, and getting those based on workrate alone. Norton never came even close in any fight I've seen or read about, to the workrate Jirov showed in there. Tiberi was an exception, and did he land many clean punches on Toney?
Toney's win over Holyfield (even that old version) is more significant than any fight Norton has won in his career. Take that version of Toney and he whips Norton's ass easily with his sharp counter-punching.
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 09:57 AM   #28
SteveO
MSW
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,126
vCash: 1040
Default Re: James Toney vs. Ken Norton

I'd pick Toney by decision.

7-5.

In a 15 round fight, Toney gasses out and Norton takes the win.
SteveO is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 10:59 AM   #29
cuchulain
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Muirthemne
Posts: 10,271
vCash: 1000
Default Re: James Toney vs. Ken Norton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
like I said, Young is a more deserving fighter than Norton (wins over Ali, Foreman, 2x Lyle, Norton).

Young did not have a win over Ali.

Not even over the near-shot and disabled version he faced.

And prime Norton would stop the 'heavywt' version of Toney early.
cuchulain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2008, 11:18 AM   #30
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 12,562
vCash: 1000
Default Re: James Toney vs. Ken Norton

Toney did not ascend to heavyweight until he was well past his prime, and even then, defeated or gave weak performances against declining fighers or ones that were never very good to begin with. I give him all the credit in the world for the things he acheived at middleweight, supermiddleweight, etc, but his heavyweight career does not exactly stand out to me as being particularly impressive. In fact, his rise to the division always appeared to be a result of weight managment problems rather than an intentional climb.

Ken Norton was a true natural heavyweight and one of the division's historically best conditioned ones at that. There was no excess bagage or evidence of steroid use. Norton was a natural stud in the 210-218 lb range. In 1973, he defeated and busted up a very competitive Muhammad Ali who was coming off a great win streak and who's biggest win was yet to come. Toney beating a shot Holyfield and scoring a draw with Hasim Rahman does not convince me that he'd beat Norton. While Toney was certainly durable, as he was never stopped in 80 fights, Ken showed that he could go 15 rounds on a number of occasions, and was only stopped mainly by concensus all time great punchers. I do not see either of these men winning by KO, but the likelyhood of Norton getting the decision is rather high in my opinion. We simply did not see a prime Toney fighting at heavyweight, and can't make assumptions about what he'd do if we did.
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013