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Old 02-13-2008, 03:23 AM   #1
Russell
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Default Lennox or Ali - Who Fought More Big...

Punchers? Ali usually gets recogniztion for facing the most power punchers of any HW, but how about Lennox?

I see Lennox faulted for being dropped knocked out against Rahman and McCall, but Ali was dropped by both Cooper and Banks, both of whom I think are weaker punchers than Rahman and McCall.

And we may as well of had an inglorious TKO loss for Ali against Cooper, a very "medicore" puncher, from a punch that Ali should of been able to avoid... If it wasn't for Dundee.

So, what say you?
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:08 AM   #2
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Default Re: Lennox or Ali - Who Fought More Big...

Nice!

Here's another angle

Unsatisfied with his Olympic performance in 1960, Lennox has another bash in the '64 Games beating a much younger and naive Frazier on a controversial premature stoppage. Although he never fights Frazier in the pro ranks, Lennox's supporters cite this amateur bout as proof of what would have happened to Frazier should they have met in the pros.

It does not faze them that Frazier was a much more effective pro fighter than he was as an amateur, due to his tremendous work ethic and stamina, and not least because of his war-of-attrition style. Lennox is really big and impressive looking, a nice fella to boot, and has a cool hairstyle so the other factors don't seem too important...

Because Lewis is fighting amateur bouts in the early to mid 60s he misses both Cooper and Banks left hooks and, most conveniently of all, avoids a 1964 confrontation with 10 year winning streak Sonny Liston. That is, until 1970, when Liston is suicidal and so faded that the contest is now meaningless, although much-hyped by the press who want to sell newspapers, and the promoters, who want to make more money ringside.

To be fair, Liston and Lewis are both at fault for the belated 1970 showdown, instead of a more meaningful one in the mid 60s because, sadly, they both accept payoffs not to fight each other. Boxing is considered to have reached new lows.

Lewis gains a portion of one of the belts by default, but manages to lose it to Foneda Cox, one of Listons old sparring partners, who was suffering from a mental disorder at the time - but somehow managed to spark Lewis with a single punch.

I have glossed over the best performance of Lewis career so far - a sensational 2 round demolition of hot contender Ernie Terrell in 1966, but the win is difficult to assess as Ernie was coming off 2 straight losses to Liston, one a fairly convincing but premature stoppage, and the other a close points decision – it seems probable that Terrell’s confidence had been somewhat shaken, as had his aura of invincibility.

While Liston, Frazier and Foreman pound each other into submission in the late 60s and early 70s, Lewis ages gracefully (which is to his credit, but is also a consequence of avoiding the elite, tough matches, when his opponents would have been at the peak of their powers).

He finally fights Foreman twice in the late 70s when George is ring-worn and punch-drunk and wins one on points, but neither performance is totally convincing.

A silly loss to Ken Norton by another single shot in 1978 suggests some robustness problems, by TOP10 ATG standards...His career becomes highly debated on ESB…

DISCUSS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell
Punchers? Ali usually gets recogniztion for facing the most power punchers of any HW, but how about Lennox?

I see Lennox faulted for being dropped knocked out against Rahman and McCall, but Ali was dropped by both Cooper and Banks, both of whom I think are weaker punchers than Rahman and McCall.

And we may as well of had an inglorious TKO loss for Ali against Cooper, a very "medicore" puncher, from a punch that Ali should of been able to avoid... If it wasn't for Dundee.

So, what say you?
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:27 AM   #3
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Lennox or Ali - Who Fought More Big...

Who is a puncher and who isn't is a bit subjective, but their records look something like this:

Lewis' punchers faced:

Mason
Tua
Weaver
Ruddock
Tucker
Jackson
McCall 2x
Bruno
Mercer
Morrison
Akinwande
Golota
Briggs
Holyfield 2x
Grant
Rahman 2x
Tyson
Klitschko

That's a total of 20 fights with big punchers. Literally all of them were over 210 pounds and a lot were natural 230+lbs punchers. Nearly all of them were ranked in the ring top10 when they fought. Lewis was knocked down twice


Ali's punchers faced:

Moore
Cooper 2x
Liston 2x
Chuvalo 2x
Williams
Bonavena
Frazier 3x
Foster (mac)
Norton 3x
Foreman
Lyle
Shavers

That's a total of 19 fights with big punchers. Nearly all of them were ranked in the top10 when they fought.


There are a few cases of doubt. Weaver didn't have the highest knockout percentage, but this is among others because he was learning on the job and took a lot of losses early on.

What about Norton? His KO percentage is certainly up there, but against top opposition, he was not known for scoring knockouts. He gradually wore down an aging Quarry and blew away Bobick, but that's pretty much it. Breaking Ali's jaw is impressive, but to me that's not the sign of a puncher. Breaking a jaw, causing a cut or a bruising is usually more a sign of getting through often rather than being a big power puncher. Every heavyweight who sits down on his punches can hit hard; hard enough to break a jaw, cause cuts or bruises. It's really the concussive power that takes your legs away that i'm talking about.

Anyway, i included Norton. He's borderline, but to make things fair, i included Holyfield on Lewis' record. Holyfield used to not really be a big puncher in the late 80's/early 90's, but seemed to have improved power as he bulked up in the mid 90's when he dropped Tyson, Mercer and Bowe.

Another is Mavrovic. He has a high knockout percentage, but never really proved it against top opposition. Not because he fell short, but because he had to retire after the Lewis fight after catching a disease. He is fine today. But i left him off the list.

Tyson was old when Lewis faced him, but he was still a brutal puncher: in the years leading up to this bout, he had a one-punch knockout over Botha (arguably his best ever despite looking shit), beat up Golota badly, stopped Savarese, Norris in one round.. he could only pour it on for a few rounds, but he still had great handspeed and power during the first four.

Cooper was also a bit of a case of doubt. He showed in his first fight with Ali that he's a dangerous although somewhat limited puncher, though, so i included him.

I excluded Quarry because he relied on wearing his opponent down rather than being really a big puncher.


Ali was down twice against them (Cooper I, Frazier I) and so was Lewis (McCall I, Rahman I). However, Lewis was stopped on both occasians. All four of those fights have been avenged by wins. I think Lewis faced a bit better and harder punching fighters, whereas Ali faced more skilled boxers. The list is also a bit skewed because Liston didn't really do anything in his rematch with Ali and Williams was shot. On the other hand, Weaver didn't have much left against Lewis, either.
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:50 AM   #4
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Default Re: Lennox or Ali - Who Fought More Big...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Who is a puncher and who isn't is a bit subjective, but their records look something like this:

Lewis' punchers faced:

Mason
Tua
Weaver
Ruddock
Tucker
Jackson
McCall 2x
Bruno
Mercer
Morrison
Akinwande
Golota
Briggs
Holyfield 2x
Grant
Rahman 2x
Tyson
Klitschko

That's a total of 20 fights with big punchers. Literally all of them were over 210 pounds and a lot were natural 230+lbs punchers. Nearly all of them were ranked in the ring top10 when they fought. Lewis was knocked down twice


Ali's punchers faced:

Moore
Cooper 2x
Liston 2x
Chuvalo 2x
Williams
Bonavena
Frazier 3x
Foster (mac)
Norton 3x
Foreman
Lyle
Shavers

That's a total of 19 fights with big punchers. Nearly all of them were ranked in the top10 when they fought.
I think Lewis for two reasons.

1 ) Ali fought a few guys who were only semi dangerous in an old Moore, and old Williams, Cooper, Chavalo, and Bonevena. So 7 of his matches were not vs what I call dangerous punchers.

2 ) I think Lewis fought more guys who were more likely to end a match based on one or two well well placed shots.
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:05 AM   #5
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Default Re: Lennox or Ali - Who Fought More Big...

Chris, as you say these things are subjective...but I don't consider Akinwande or Chuvalo punchers.
Just sayin'.
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:02 AM   #6
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Default Re: Lennox or Ali - Who Fought More Big...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
Chris, as you say these things are subjective...but I don't consider Akinwande or Chuvalo punchers.
Just sayin'.
chuvalo has 64 ko's he could punch,maybe not as hard as foreman or shavers
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Old 02-13-2008, 10:50 AM   #7
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Default Re: Lennox or Ali - Who Fought More Big...

Akinwande could bang a bit (just ask Jeremy Williams, although he might not remember it), but he was primarily a jab-right points win kinda guy.
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Old 02-13-2008, 11:51 AM   #8
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Default Re: Lennox or Ali - Who Fought More Big...

Numbers-wise, Lewis, because the thing as of the Nineties became size and muscle. But Ali fought better hard-hitting fighters. Liston, Frazier and Foreman are better than any steroid-blown-up opponent of Lewis.

Kudos to Lewis for developing into the best fighter of his era, a good one with many powerful bangers, and proving brute strength is not everything. Lewis became an excellent technician and tactician.
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:12 PM   #9
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Default Re: Lennox or Ali - Who Fought More Big...

What can equal a resume which includes a still dangerous Sonny Liston and a George Foreman at his fearsome best?

Mike Tyson, you say? At his peak we may attempt an arguement. But certainly not the Mike Tyson who really faced Lewis inside the ring.

Any other? Maybe David Tua. But no. He was too elementary. Can't really be grouped with the above named.

All others named in this thread must take a back seat to the aforesaid as far as punching power is concerned.

Debate closed?
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:58 PM   #10
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Default Re: Lennox or Ali - Who Fought More Big...

Add Patterson, Quarry, Jones, Moore & Clark to Ali's list. Akinwande
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:42 PM   #11
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Default Re: Lennox or Ali - Who Fought More Big...

Chuvalo COULD punch. He had Quarry off his feet, something Frazier managed all of once I believe, with a bodyshot.
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Old 02-14-2008, 05:55 AM   #12
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Default Re: Lennox or Ali - Who Fought More Big...

Quote:
Originally Posted by abraq
What can equal a resume which includes a still dangerous Sonny Liston and a George Foreman at his fearsome best?

Mike Tyson, you say? At his peak we may attempt an arguement. But certainly not the Mike Tyson who really faced Lewis inside the ring.

Any other? Maybe David Tua. But no. He was too elementary. Can't really be grouped with the above named.

All others named in this thread must take a back seat to the aforesaid as far as punching power is concerned.

Debate closed?
Not quite...

Frank Bruno for me was every bit as hard a puncher as Liston and Foreman. Look at his KO% and also the fight with McCall, in which in round 3 Bruno's power put the man with arguably the best chin of all time into a defensive shell. James 'Bonecrusher' Smith, who fought them both, also stated that "Bruno was a much bigger single shot puncher than Tyson". Morrison too is definately right up there as a puncher with the best and most of the punchers that Lewis faced are in the same ballpark as Liston and Foreman for power. Finally, Tyson was probably a bigger single shot puncher when he faced Lewis than he was in his prime. The reason being that a) he was a little heavier and b) he relied on single shots instead of combinations basically because he was no longer able to throw them with the speed and menace he did in his prime.

So the debate is far from closed IMO.
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:52 AM   #13
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Default Re: Lennox or Ali - Who Fought More Big...

Quote:
Originally Posted by abraq
What can equal a resume which includes a still dangerous Sonny Liston and a George Foreman at his fearsome best?

Mike Tyson, you say? At his peak we may attempt an arguement. But certainly not the Mike Tyson who really faced Lewis inside the ring.

Any other? Maybe David Tua. But no. He was too elementary. Can't really be grouped with the above named.

All others named in this thread must take a back seat to the aforesaid as far as punching power is concerned.

Debate closed?
Narrow minded view of it.

We're discussing quality and quantity, among other things.

Being "elementary" has absolutely nothing to do with raw power, which IS what we're talking about here.
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Old 02-14-2008, 07:55 AM   #14
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Default Re: Lennox or Ali - Who Fought More Big...

it has to be lewis
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Old 02-14-2008, 08:31 AM   #15
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Default Re: Lennox or Ali - Who Fought More Big...

Foreman, Liston and Shavers were very big punchers. I dont think Lewis fought any guys who hit harder.

But Lewis probably fought more big punchers on average than Ali did.
Lewis fought in an era where steroids and growth hormones were used by most of the elite heavyweights to enhance strength and power. I believe guys like Morrison, Ruddock, McCall, Rahman, Mercer, Golota, Holyfield, Lewis himself, and loads of second-raters all used these substances that really produce improvements in strength and power that cant be attained without them.
Guys like Henry Cooper, Zora Folley, Floyd Patterson, Jerry Quarry, Joe Bugner, Mac Foster, Joe Frazier and Ernie Terrell would have been MUCH HEAVIER HITTERS or much bigger stronger more aggressive fighters given the same drugs.
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