Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by Senya13

Jones by KO within first 6 rounds. Robinson's defense was flawed (not enough head and body movement, hands held too low when opponent is within firing range), he has no chance whatsoever to win at long range against Jones, and he cannot fight in close to try to avoid the punishment he'll be receiving. Robinson's chin wasn't very solid either, as was proven by multiple knockdowns and by argueably being knocked out by Bell. Robinson's punching power comes from punches that surprised his opponents, and he won't be able to surprise Jones with anything, while the same cannot be said about the opposite, Jones is too unorthodox for Robinson to read him and be ready for what comes his way.

Only you could make SRR sound (attempt might be fitting here) like some talentless journeyman

[Senya13]

Most fighters who faced Jones looked like journeymen or tomato cans. He has this twist to make opponents look like lower class boxers than they really are. The point is the things that were working to Robinson's advantage, won't be working anymore, because Jones is faster, too hard to catch by surprise, nearly invincible at long range (he might be not putting much offense himself there, but he doesn't allow the opponent touch him either), and is totally immune to jab (which was playing major part in Robinson's effectiveness).

[Ezzard]

Toney goes 12 rounds but Robinson only 6? Give it up...

[Senya13]

Toney was much better defensively than Robinson ever was, and has an ATG chin. Robinson's chin is not even close to ATG, although his recuperative qualities were very good.

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by Senya13

Most fighters who faced Jones looked like journeymen or tomato cans. He has this twist to make opponents look like lower class boxers than they really are.

He also never fought anyone remotely approaching SRR's class. Hopkins was excellent but far from his late peaking best, Toney was taylor made, tho credit due to sensational performance etc. Most of the guys Jones made look silly were good fighters, not great ones. I am a big fan and pick him over Hagler and Monzon, but i think SRR is well suited to putting him away.

The point is the things that were working to Robinson's advantage, won't be working anymore, because Jones is faster, too hard to catch by surprise, nearly invincible at long range (he might be not putting much offense himself there, but he doesn't allow the opponent touch him either), and is totally immune to jab (which was playing major part in Robinson's effectiveness).

Robinson has fought guys of Jones class and possibly above, but you only see Jones side of the fight when he has never fought a guy near the class of SRR. The guy in question here is Jones, not SRR. We know 160 is not Robinsons greatest weight, but at his best there he was brilliant regardless. Jones was if anything a little inexperienced at this weight which evens out the balance.

Jones totally immune to the jab, what sort of propoganda is that? What great jabbers did he face? Spare me an ancient Virgil Hill. I would also add that Robinson didn't depend on his jab as much as many an ATG. Another point is that the Jones jab is practically non existent, and he might just be found out here in that regard. Robinson makes Toney and co look like tortoises and i think he is every chance of timing Jones scinitillating surprise attacks and putting some sleep on him eventually. Jones is the one stepping up here more so than Robinson, not vice versa.

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by Senya13

Toney was much better defensively than Robinson ever was, and has an ATG chin. Robinson's chin is not even close to ATG, although his recuperative qualities were very good.

And Jones wasn't exactly known for his finishing either

Never mind Toney's defence, his attack vs Jones was totally impotent and SRR will afford Jones the same gift. Speaking of durability, SRR is FAR more proven than Jones and yet again, you are looking at the wrong side of the coin. A huge part of the Jones effectiveness was not getting hit solidly barely at all, again he won't be afforded the same luxury here - SRR is one of the few middles in history i think can really put some heat on the Jones heart and chin. Tho way past peak Jones recovery time was shown to be woeful. Again, SRR is the one fighter i think can put peak Jones durability and recovery intangibles to the sword.

[Senya13]

Originally Posted by JohnThomas1

He also never fought anyone remotely approaching SRR's class.

SRR never fought anyone remotely approaching RJJ's class.

Hopkins was excellent but far from his late peaking best,

Watch Hopkins' 5th fight on youtube and stop repeating stupid stories.

Most of the guys Jones made look silly were good fighters, not great ones.

Most of the guys Robinson looked great against were much inferior to him, when he faced very good fighters he had close fights or plain struggled for a win.

Robinson has fought guys of Jones class and possibly above,

Kid Gavilan is the best boxer Robinson ever fought, but he's not in Jones' class for skills, cleverness, speed or punching power. The rest were inferior to Gavilan.

We know 160 is not Robinsons greatest weight, but at his best there he was brilliant regardless.

He was brilliant at 160lb in which fights in particular?

Jones was if anything a little inexperienced at this weight which evens out the balance.

He was inexperienced at what in particular? He had his last fight at 160lb less than 6 months before the fight with Toney. Jones doesn't has to be the version from Hopkins fight, who might have been lacking a little.

Jones totally immune to the jab, what sort of propoganda is that?

I repeat, no fighter ever could cleanly land jab on Jones with any kind of consistency. Few were able to land even 2 jabs out of 10 on him, and even that would be have been partially slipped. Try remembering a couple of examples where you have seen Jones' head snapped back by a jab? A couple is too much, try remembering just one example then?

Another point is that the Jones jab is practically non existent,

No video of Jones at 160 or 168 is in existance too? Or you just haven't seen it before?

Robinson makes Toney and co look like tortoises

Robinson is a faster mover, that was his main defense. He didn't show much head and body movement for defense.

i think he is every chance of timing Jones

Based on what? On your fantasies? Where did he time a very quick boxer on film at 160lb? Maybe you gonna call slow-like-turtle Fullmer quick, I don't know.

[Senya13]

Originally Posted by JohnThomas1

And Jones wasn't exactly known for his finishing either

At 175? Perhaps. At 160 and 168? No video of him at those weights exist, as we learned from non-existence of his jab according to your words.

SRR is FAR more proven than Jones and yet again,

Jones showed in first fight against Tarver more durability than Robinson showed in his tough fights, coming to the end more fresh than Robinson, despite absorbing as many punches or more.

SRR is one of the few middles in history i think can really put some heat on the Jones heart and chin.

Robinson wasn't natural middleweight, he didn't show much ability of this kind at 160 or above.

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by Senya13

SRR never fought anyone remotely approaching RJJ's class.

Oh rubbish Senya.

Watch Hopkins' 5th fight on youtube and stop repeating stupid stories.

Get your hand off your dikk. Yeah, Hopkins was peak from his 5th fight on

Most of the guys Robinson looked great against were much inferior to him, when he faced very good fighters he had close fights or plain struggled for a win.

Yeah, Jones beat 5 or 6 greats too didn't he? Besides the fact your above is BS. Consider yourself lukky i don't take the low road and ridicule Jones based on Johnson and Tarver. Lucky i'm a fan

Kid Gavilan is the best boxer Robinson ever fought, but he's not in Jones' class for skills, cleverness, speed or punching power. The rest were inferior to Gavilan.

Yes, and Jones isn't a patch on Gavilan's resilience, durability and heart. It's not always about skills and talent

He was brilliant at 160lb in which fights in particular?

Plenty more than Jones

He was inexperienced at what in particular? He had his last fight at 160lb less than 6 months before the fight with Toney. Jones doesn't has to be the version from Hopkins fight, who might have been lacking a little.

So now Jones is peak and complete at 160 is he?

I repeat, no fighter ever could cleanly land jab on Jones with any kind of consistency. Few were able to land even 2 jabs out of 10 on him, and even that would be have been partially slipped. Try remembering a couple of examples where you have seen Jones' head snapped back by a jab? A couple is too much, try remembering just one example then?

The point here is that you conveniently run away from my question regarding what great jabs Jones came up against. It's fine to slip the jabs of a Tex Cobb say, but another proposition altogether if he is replaced by Larry Holmes.

No video of Jones at 160 or 168 is in existance too? Or you just haven't seen it before?

You're telling me Jones had a dominant jab now?

Robinson is a faster mover, that was his main defense. He didn't show much head and body movement for defense.

Robinson's offense is the key here not his defence. Robinson is stopping Jones.

Based on what? On your fantasies? Where did he time a very quick boxer on film at 160lb? Maybe you gonna call slow-like-turtle Fullmer quick, I don't know.

I have defended Jones many times in here, but your nuthugging of the man is downright fukking embarrassing. I have never ever seen you in all my time here give ANY opponent ANY respect in a prospective match against him. All i see is degradation of others chances regardless of reputation, at least most of us can give Jones his due as an opponent as i have with him previously. You need to get a good grip of yourself regarding Jones.

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by Senya13

At 175? Perhaps. At 160 and 168? No video of him at those weights exist, as we learned from non-existence of his jab according to your words.

WTF are you on about?

Jones showed in first fight against Tarver more durability than Robinson showed in his tough fights, coming to the end more fresh than Robinson, despite absorbing as many punches or more.

More crap. Jones got KTF out by a single punch vs Tarver second fight, something that never ever happened to Robinson despite fighting into a ripe old shot age. Robinson has by far the better durability.

Robinson wasn't natural middleweight, he didn't show much ability of this kind at 160 or above.

So Jones WAS a natural middleweight?

So the hook from hell on Fullmer was too fast for you to comprehend? Might be too fast for Roy Boy too

[Senya13]

Hopkins wasn't "far from his peaking best" when he faced Jones. Technically, he already was a complete fighter, he showed versatility before the Jones fight. He only gained recognition late, because he lacked star opponents for a while. It's only people who haven't seen his early fights who are repeating the myth that B-Hop was green and inexperienced and not developed for Jones fight.

Consider yourself lucky that I'm not referring to version of Robinson of the same age as what Jones had been when he faced Tarver and Johnson. Because I understand what a BS such arguments are.

You are talking about the same Gavilan who was known for taking breaks for long periods during fights, multiple times, only trying to steal rounds by waking up shortly in each round?

So you have no particular examples when Robinson looked brilliant at 160lb? Jones looked brilliant at almost every fight he had at either 160 or 168.

Jones had reached his peak in 1994, and he was complete at 160lb already, both technically and mentally.

Several fighters Jones faced were known (and showed in all other fights except vs Jones) for their excellent jab. Their jab was not working AT ALL. Joe Gans, Benny Leonard, Barney Ross, Willie Pep, Nicolino Locche, Wilfred Benitez, Ray Leonard and others were tagged by clean flush jabs at least occasionally or even frequently, by fighters who's jab wasn't better than that of fighters Jones met. Jones was never tagged by clean flush jabs in his career, at any weight or at any stage of his career, not even at 35 years or older.
Where was Larry Holmes' jab vs Michael Spinks?

Yes, Jones had a dominant jab at 160 and 168, as can be seen in many fights at those weights. He was setting up his combinations off the jab a lot of the time, or controlling the distance and pace of the fight with it.

Robinson is not going to be tagged by Jones? His chin is of Oliver McCall's caliber? Jones was a huge puncher at 160lb, bigger than Robinson was himself for 147 or 154lb divisions.

I'm just tired of people being up in the clouds whenever they are talking about some old-timers. Showing inability to provide any factual examples when asked this or that, or giving counter-examples when confronted by facts of weaknesses on their part. 160-lb Robinson was no longer the offensive master he was at 147 or 154, he was more vulnerable and struggled much more time than he did at lower weights, because his offense wasn't enough anymore to put people out anymore with one or two punches, and when he could no longer ignore what they were throwing back at him, because quite naturally they hit harder on average than those lightweights and welterweights he was facing before. Just like people combine pre- and post-exile Ali's qualities together, even though such Ali never existed in reality, the same way they are combining Robinson's quality at 147 or 154 whenever they talk about his supposed "peak" 160lb version, even though in his supposed "peak" fight at this weight, the last meeting with LaMotta, Robinson majorly struggled and showed serious flaws in his defense, his footwork wasn't as effective anymore, and his punches were less stinging to LaMotta than they had been in some of their previous meetings.

[Senya13]

Originally Posted by JohnThomas1

WTF are you on about?

I'm talking about you not having watched Jones at 160 or 168, based on your argument that Jones had no jab whatsoever.

Jones got KTF out by a single punch vs Tarver second fight, something that never ever happened to Robinson despite fighting into a ripe old shot age.

25-years old Robinson was basically KTF out by single punch vs Tommy Bell, only saved by the referee's slow count.

So Jones WAS a natural middleweight?

Based on fight footage of Jones we have at 160lb, his struggling with weight didn't affect his performances much.

So the hook from hell on Fullmer was too fast for you to comprehend? Might be too fast for Roy Boy too

Show me a couple of fights where Fulmer wasn't slow and predictable like a turtle? Yet, Robinson was able to time him like that only 1 time in the course of 50 rounds!

[warrior85]

prime?i think so.

[China_hand_Joe]

Jones beating Robinson would only be an upset in America.

[Mega Lamps]

This senya fellow and china something just seems to be trolls and people keep feeding them. If they truly believe everything they say, thats a pity .