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Old 02-16-2008, 11:27 AM   #46
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Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

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Originally Posted by Senya13
Hopkins wasn't "far from his peaking best" when he faced Jones. Technically, he already was a complete fighter, he showed versatility before the Jones fight. He only gained recognition late, because he lacked star opponents for a while. It's only people who haven't seen his early fights who are repeating the myth that B-Hop was green and inexperienced and not developed for Jones fight.
Wrong again. Hopkins himself states the turning point of his career was the draw against Mercado in his second title attempt.This draw inspired his reknowned spartan approach and utter dedication and really did make a difference to him as a fighter as proven by his dominant win in the rematch. I know it suits you better to have Jones beating a peak Hopkins, but it just didn't happen sorry

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Consider yourself lucky that I'm not referring to version of Robinson of the same age as what Jones had been when he faced Tarver and Johnson. Because I understand what a BS such arguments are.
Nooooooooooooooo, go for your damn life!! Who ko'ed robinson with a single punch at this age? Well, who ko'ed him at all?

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You are talking about the same Gavilan who was known for taking breaks for long periods during fights, multiple times, only trying to steal rounds by waking up shortly in each round?
And now you attack Gavilan

Your main course of debate is mostly to denigrate all opponents excepting Roy's. Guys like Griffin are built up into ATG defensive fighters and the like

Swing it how you like, Kid was a great fighter and possessed much better durability than Roy as proven over many many fights.

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So you have no particular examples when Robinson looked brilliant at 160lb? Jones looked brilliant at almost every fight he had at either 160 or 168.
I need not supply examples, anyone that knows anything knows the drill.

"Almost"

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Jones had reached his peak in 1994, and he was complete at 160lb already, both technically and mentally.
Jones wasn't fighting at 160 in 1994.

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Several fighters Jones faced were known (and showed in all other fights except vs Jones) for their excellent jab.
Shy to name them?

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Their jab was not working AT ALL. Joe Gans, Benny Leonard, Barney Ross, Willie Pep, Nicolino Locche, Wilfred Benitez, Ray Leonard and others were tagged by clean flush jabs at least occasionally or even frequently, by fighters who's jab wasn't better than that of fighters Jones met.
So what? A Leonard proved he could beat a fighter (at the time anyways) with close to the greatest jab in history. Jones has never proven this sort of thing.

BIG point - Jones placed immense importance on not being hit, guys like Leonard and co. were very happy to swallow some jabs in order to get an opponent where they wanted him, if you can follow.

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Jones was never tagged by clean flush jabs in his career, at any weight or at any stage of his career, not even at 35 years or older.
Where was Larry Holmes' jab vs Michael Spinks?
Oh for gods sake, Holmes was an old man

If we are going to make big things of past it fighters, where was Jones chin vs Tarver and Johnson?

It's funny, i berate others for using these two examples against Jones yet you all but force me to use them against yourself. Next you will be boasting about Jones beating McCallum!

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Robinson is not going to be tagged by Jones?
Did i say that?

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His chin is of Oliver McCall's caliber?
Did i say that? Are you clutching at straws?

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Jones was a huge puncher at 160lb, bigger than Robinson was himself for 147 or 154lb divisions.
I remain unconvinced. BOTH are big punchers. SRR has more inherant killer instinct.

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I'm just tired of people being up in the clouds whenever they are talking about some old-timers.
Many would reverse the argument on you. Saying Toney would shut out Norton is the epitome of disrespect and lack of balance.

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160-lb Robinson was no longer the offensive master he was at 147 or 154, he was more vulnerable and struggled much more time than he did at lower weights, because his offense wasn't enough anymore to put people out anymore with one or two punches, and when he could no longer ignore what they were throwing back at him, because quite naturally they hit harder on average than those lightweights and welterweights he was facing before.
None of this means Jones beats Robinson you know. Jones was almost totally untested from 160 - 168. Did you hear the shit he talked after "surviving" Tarver III? It was damn well embarrassing. Lets hope the peak version doesn't lay down on winning quite so fast when things aren't easy.

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Just like people combine pre- and post-exile Ali's qualities together, even though such Ali never existed in reality, the same way they are combining Robinson's quality at 147 or 154 whenever they talk about his supposed "peak" 160lb version, even though in his supposed "peak" fight at this weight, the last meeting with LaMotta, Robinson majorly struggled and showed serious flaws in his defense, his footwork wasn't as effective anymore, and his punches were less stinging to LaMotta than they had been in some of their previous meetings.
I totally agree both Robinson and Ali were never as good as prior, but they were still great fighters. You lay all this on thick and fast yet noway was Jones peak at160!
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:31 AM   #47
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Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

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Originally Posted by Senya13
I'm talking about you not having watched Jones at 160 or 168, based on your argument that Jones had no jab whatsoever.
What fights did Jones absolutely dominate with and spring from his jab?

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25-years old Robinson was basically KTF out by single punch vs Tommy Bell, only saved by the referee's slow count.
Oh get out of here, talk about clutching at straws.

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Based on fight footage of Jones we have at 160lb, his struggling with weight didn't affect his performances much.
He never fought a great fighter there. As i explained, Hopkins was far from peak. I'm not saying Jones would not beat great fighters there, i am just saying IMO he would not beat SRR.

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Show me a couple of fights where Fulmer wasn't slow and predictable like a turtle? Yet, Robinson was able to time him like that only 1 time in the course of 50 rounds!
Yet again you attack without any semblence of respect or indeed reality.
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:40 AM   #48
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Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

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Originally Posted by Mega Lamps
This senya fellow and china something just seems to be trolls and people keep feeding them. If they truly believe everything they say, thats a pity .
Hey, i've picked up 10 Jimmy cans for $23au and already had 12 XXXX in the fridge. Gotta stave off boredom somewhere

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Old 02-16-2008, 11:48 AM   #49
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Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

Haha, very understandable then
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Old 02-16-2008, 12:01 PM   #50
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Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

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Haha, very understandable then
Thanks mate hahaha

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Old 02-16-2008, 12:16 PM   #51
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Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

Jones has the ability and talent to win this fight, but wether he actually manages to do so is an entirely different story. For my money Jones was still a bit too green as a middleweight to beat someone as experienced as Ray was by the time he moved up to 160, and in a 15 round fight I think he gets stopped late while possibly being ahead on the cards. Jones might be unorthodox, but that can be countered with expert timing and accurate counter punches once you have figured out your opponents maneurisms and habits during a fight.

Now as for Senya`s observation on how Ray was getting repeatedly caught by LaMotta in their final bout with jabs and left hooks, how convenient it is of him to overlook the fact that Ray fought much more flatfooted in that bout as he knew he was fighting a dead man in there. As such he stood his ground a lot more and left himself open on occasion as he knew early on that LaMotta did not have the power to hurt him that night like he did in their previous encounters as he was completely weight drained going into the bout.

As for Roy not being able to be hit let alone grazed by a jab at all, as JT stated do pray tell us Senya who were these all-time great jabbers that Roy has faced in his career? An old Virgil Hill perhaps? Or let me guess, the tall southpaw Tarver? Or better yet, how about the short armed Montell Griffin? I`m sure these guys all had a better, harder and snappier jab then Ray Robinson, why of course they did. And how about Senya`s observation that Ray would get knocked out as he was dropped and hurt on a number of occasions as a middleweight?

Yet again how convenient it is of him to overlook the fact that the men who put down Robinson all had reputations as fighters who could punch, and yet Ray got back up and proceeded to win each fight even though he was dropped. Lets take Ray`s fight against Rocky Castellani in which he was knocked down by a left hook he never saw coming and that landed flush on the point of his chin. Ray went down like he had been shot, yet he got back up and used his ring smarts to survive the round and go on to win the fight. Rocky was a puncher and he absolutely nailed Ray with a homerun shot that would have layed out many a fighter for the count, and this was against an old Ray who had been in many wars up to that point.

Now lets compare that to the only two times we saw Jones get dropped hard by single punches that he didn`t see coming and how he reacted once said punches landed on him. Jones got knocked out by a single Tarver left cross, a punch which while he managed to get up from it was clear his legs were gone and he was a sitting duck had Nady allowed the fight to continue. Then against Johnson he gets knocked unconscious from what seemed to be a rather hamrless looking punch on the temple, yet this punch saw him crumple to the canvas in a heap and smash his head on the canvas in the process.

Now I think most observers would readily agree that the way Ray reacted when hit hard and dropped and the way Roy did are night and day apart, as fighter A (Ray) managed to get back up and go on to win the fight whereas fighter B (Roy) did not and was stretched out for the count instead. Now I realise that both these fights happened late in Roy`s career, but no one is going to convince me that Jones suddenly lost his ability to take a punch just because he reached the age of 35. He got knocked out because as his reflexes and timing diminished as he got older, this resulted in him getting hit more and when this happened his achilles heel was revealed for all to see.

Why else would someone fight as defensively as he has during his career if not to hide such a big lialibility? The fact that this liability wasn`t revealed until he got old shows just how great a fighter he was to protect his chin so well for all these years. But the fact remains that if anyone could have reached Jones chin to test it under fire it would be Robinson, who had the right blend of speed, power and timing as well as the fighting spirit required to walk through Jones offense and force the fight when need be. Ray wasn`t as smooth defensively as Jones was I`ll concede that, but the fact remains he will have been the most talented opponent Jones has ever faced and from a stylistic standpoint Ray has all the tools necessary to defeat Jones, which I believe he would have done in a tough fight.
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Old 02-16-2008, 12:41 PM   #52
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Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

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Originally Posted by Raging B(_)LL
Jones has the ability and talent to win this fight, but wether he actually manages to do so is an entirely different story. For my money Jones was still a bit too green as a middleweight to beat someone as experienced as Ray was by the time he moved up to 160, and in a 15 round fight I think he gets stopped late while possibly being ahead on the cards. Jones might be unorthodox, but that can be countered with expert timing and accurate counter punches once you have figured out your opponents maneurisms and habits during a fight.

Now as for Senya`s observation on how Ray was getting repeatedly caught by LaMotta in their final bout with jabs and left hooks, how convenient it is of him to overlook the fact that Ray fought much more flatfooted in that bout as he knew he was fighting a dead man in there. As such he stood his ground a lot more and left himself open on occasion as he knew early on that LaMotta did not have the power to hurt him that night like he did in their previous encounters as he was completely weight drained going into the bout.

As for Roy not being able to be hit let alone grazed by a jab at all, as JT stated do pray tell us Senya who were these all-time great jabbers that Roy has faced in his career? An old Virgil Hill perhaps? Or let me guess, the tall southpaw Tarver? Or better yet, how about the short armed Montell Griffin? I`m sure these guys all had a better, harder and snappier jab then Ray Robinson, why of course they did. And how about Senya`s observation that Ray would get knocked out as he was dropped and hurt on a number of occasions as a middleweight?

Yet again how convenient it is of him to overlook the fact that the men who put down Robinson all had reputations as fighters who could punch, and yet Ray got back up and proceeded to win each fight even though he was dropped. Lets take Ray`s fight against Rocky Castellani in which he was knocked down by a left hook he never saw coming and that landed flush on the point of his chin. Ray went down like he had been shot, yet he got back up and used his ring smarts to survive the round and go on to win the fight. Rocky was a puncher and he absolutely nailed Ray with a homerun shot that would have layed out many a fighter for the count, and this was against an old Ray who had been in many wars up to that point.

Now lets compare that to the only two times we saw Jones get dropped hard by single punches that he didn`t see coming and how he reacted once said punches landed on him. Jones got knocked out by a single Tarver left cross, a punch which while he managed to get up from it was clear his legs were gone and he was a sitting duck had Nady allowed the fight to continue. Then against Johnson he gets knocked unconscious from what seemed to be a rather hamrless looking punch on the temple, yet this punch saw him crumple to the canvas in a heap and smash his head on the canvas in the process.

Now I think most observers would readily agree that the way Ray reacted when hit hard and dropped and the way Roy did are night and day apart, as fighter A (Ray) managed to get back up and go on to win the fight whereas fighter B (Roy) did not and was stretched out for the count instead. Now I realise that both these fights happened late in Roy`s career, but no one is going to convince me that Jones suddenly lost his ability to take a punch just because he reached the age of 35. He got knocked out because as his reflexes and timing diminished as he got older, this resulted in him getting hit more and when this happened his achilles heel was revealed for all to see.

Why else would someone fight as defensively as he has during his career if not to hide such a big lialibility? The fact that this liability wasn`t revealed until he got old shows just how great a fighter he was to protect his chin so well for all these years. But the fact remains that if anyone could have reached Jones chin to test it under fire it would be Robinson, who had the right blend of speed, power and timing as well as the fighting spirit required to walk through Jones offense and force the fight when need be. Ray wasn`t as smooth defensively as Jones was I`ll concede that, but the fact remains he will have been the most talented opponent Jones has ever faced and from a stylistic standpoint Ray has all the tools necessary to defeat Jones, which I believe he would have done in a tough fight.
What a fantastic post.
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Old 02-16-2008, 12:47 PM   #53
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Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

I didn't say Hopkins was at his peak for Jones, I said he wasn't this inexperienced green fighter many make him out to be. Technically he didn't improve after Jones' fight, he already had a full arsenal prior to meeting with Jones. There was recently an article on this site or some other site, where somebody from Phily recalled how before the Jones' fight they were expecting Hopkins to make a surprise for everybody, by how good he was, underated only because the press didn't pay much attention to "just another contender". And the film of that Hopkins fully proves that. His approach for the fights had changed somewhat to a more calculated and more defensive-minded style after that, but that hardly improved him much for Jones.

Robinson was f---ing stopped by Joey Maxim and looked like shit against such "great" opponents as Ralph Jones and Johnny Lombardo. Jones lost to two best 175-pounders besides himself at the time, Robinson lost to tomato can at 33 years of age. Lost by a shoutout decision 100-88. And in next bout barely won by SD over another tomato can, who was also much smaller than Robinson.
Judge for yourself what is worse, losing to two champions, ranked #1 or #2 in the world in that weight class, or getting stopped, losing on a shoutout decision to one tomato can and barely winning on SD from another tomato can?

Where was Gavilan's heart when he was giving rounds away and barely waking up for 20 seconds per round, fight after fight (which is the reason why he had so many MD's and SD's)? Old-timers are far from being perfect, only looking ideal to people who are ignorant about their careers. Yes, the Hawk was very durable, but that's the only thing he has advantage over Jones, as a boxer he was inferior to Jones, skillwise or cleverness-wise.

Everybody knows that Robinson looked brilliant at 160lb against some nobodies, of which fights we only have short highlights of, Jean Stock, Jean Walzack, Hans Stretz, etc. Fighters who are worse than any of Jones' opponents from 1993 or later.

Jones wasn't fighting at 160lb in 1994? When was the last time you visited his record at boxrec?

Thulani Malinga, Reggie Johnson, Eric Harding, Derrick Harmon showed excellent or very good jab in other fights, but not against Jones.

A Leonard ran like scared rabbit half the rounds of that fight, from a dehydrated fighter, waiting till he gets tired and only then he desided to mix it up for a couple of rounds, getting help from the referee in the process for a stoppage. But the point is, he was getting nailed by jabs by fighters not known for having a great jab. Same as the other excellent defensive masters I listed. None of them came close to be as effective at avoiding getting hit by jab as Jones. And that was without sacrificing much in offense, as he was hitting his opponents much more often than they were hitting him. Which is the essence of boxing.

Holmes was able to fight another 15 years with the help of his jab, yet he was "too old" to be effective with it vs much smaller opponent with much shorter arms?

Where was Jones' chin vs Tarver? They fought 3 times, he was stopped once.

Jones had stopped all of his opponents except 2 fighters with ATG chins - Castro and Hopkins. Robinson didn't come even close to such percentage, failing to stop even several tomato cans.

Jones was totally untested at 160 and 168, yet somehow the Ring magazine thought him deserving P4P #10 in 1992, #8 in 1993, #2 in 1994 and #1 in 1995, during which time he fought no higher than 168.
People talk a lot of shit after they have lost, taking that as an argument at evaluating any fighter is plain silly.
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Old 02-16-2008, 01:06 PM   #54
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Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

Jab? Watch Jones vs Castro, Thomas, Malinga, Chirino, Garcia, Toney, Pazienza, Thornton, Lucas.

One left hook to the jaw, and Robinson was argueably on the floor for longer than 10 seconds (even though it was a count of 7).

You wanted me to take Fullmer fight as an example of Robinson's timing, so it's totally reasonable to ask what you gave that example for, considering Fullmer was slow as f--k? No other better examples? Then what's the chance that he will be able to time Jones who was faster and more unpredictable than anyone Robinson ever faced in his career?
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Old 02-17-2008, 12:49 AM   #55
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Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

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Originally Posted by Senya13
I didn't say Hopkins was at his peak for Jones, I said he wasn't this inexperienced green fighter many make him out to be. Technically he didn't improve after Jones' fight, he already had a full arsenal prior to meeting with Jones.
I've already explained to you Hopkins found total committment and dedication after the first Mercado bout. Bottom line - beating this version of Hopkins, or even peak Hopkins, doesn't guarantee Jones victory over SRR. End of on this one.

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Robinson was f---ing stopped by Joey Maxim
Technically correct, but intellectually pitiful.

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Robinson was f---ing stopped by Joey Maxim and looked like shit against such "great" opponents as Ralph Jones and Johnny Lombardo. Jones lost to two best 175-pounders besides himself at the time, Robinson lost to tomato can at 33 years of age. Lost by a shoutout decision 100-88. And in next bout barely won by SD over another tomato can, who was also much smaller than Robinson.
Judge for yourself what is worse, losing to two champions, ranked #1 or #2 in the world in that weight class, or getting stopped, losing on a shoutout decision to one tomato can and barely winning on SD from another tomato can?
Two things here

1. Talk to me about some of the above when Jones has 200 bouts under his belt.

2. During these poor performances and your claimed shellackings Robinson wasn't getting KTFO. Even at ages and stages FAR more advanced than Roy's. Hell 40+ Hopkins totally schooled Tarver who in turn had KTFO Jones! Nobodies matching up 1955 and forward SRR here, it's pre 1952 dude

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Where was Gavilan's heart when he was giving rounds away and barely waking up for 20 seconds per round, fight after fight (which is the reason why he had so many MD's and SD's)? Old-timers are far from being perfect, only looking ideal to people who are ignorant about their careers. Yes, the Hawk was very durable, but that's the only thing he has advantage over Jones, as a boxer he was inferior to Jones, skillwise or cleverness-wise.
Have you ever stopped to think that this better durability might be the pertinent point here?

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Everybody knows that Robinson looked brilliant at 160lb against some nobodies, of which fights we only have short highlights of, Jean Stock, Jean Walzack, Hans Stretz, etc. Fighters who are worse than any of Jones' opponents from 1993 or later.
Lets talk about Griffin with Eddie Futch in his corner. How did Jones look in that one? Please spare me the Griffin greatness too, the guy is average.

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Thulani Malinga, Reggie Johnson, Eric Harding, Derrick Harmon showed excellent or very good jab in other fights, but not against Jones.
Not exactly Hearns, Hagler, Liston and Holmes is it.

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A Leonard ran like scared rabbit half the rounds of that fight, from a dehydrated fighter, waiting till he gets tired and only then he desided to mix it up for a couple of rounds, getting help from the referee in the process for a stoppage. But the point is, he was getting nailed by jabs by fighters not known for having a great jab. Same as the other excellent defensive masters I listed. None of them came close to be as effective at avoiding getting hit by jab as Jones. And that was without sacrificing much in offense, as he was hitting his opponents much more often than they were hitting him. Which is the essence of boxing.
Leonard got the job done, it's what greats do many times when under extreme stress and question. By contrast Jones fouled out vs Griffin and was barely ever under any extreme pressure to show his worth under such circumstances in his prime. This makes him an unknown quality if SRR does indeed get to him, which i reckon he does.

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Holmes was able to fight another 15 years with the help of his jab, yet he was "too old" to be effective with it vs much smaller opponent with much shorter arms?
I don't give two shits about Holmes fighting another 15 years, the point is he was running on about 60% vs Spinks, and about 75% if that in the rematch. The timing and speed of jab was mostly gone. It was far from just the jab that allowed him to fight that other 15 years, and blind Freddy can see it wasn't the great snapping weapon it had been in the halcyon years.

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Where was Jones' chin vs Tarver? They fought 3 times, he was stopped once.
I'd hardly boast. Hopkins barely blinked against Tarver let alone got into trouble from his mitts. In the third match Roy was terribly wobbled by a single shot and stayed wobbled for an eternity - only Tarvers tiredness and weak effort at finishing saved him. IF peak Jones gets hurt like this vs SRR it's Goodnight Irene!!!!

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Jones had stopped all of his opponents except 2 fighters with ATG chins - Castro and Hopkins. Robinson didn't come even close to such percentage, failing to stop even several tomato cans.
Robinson had 200 fights and took many on a moments notice or with little break. Jones missed many of the best fighters of his era no? I've often seen people criticising him for not fighting a handful of quality guys, tho i am not getting into debate about it.

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Jones was totally untested at 160 and 168, yet somehow the Ring magazine thought him deserving P4P #10 in 1992, #8 in 1993, #2 in 1994 and #1 in 1995, during which time he fought no higher than 168.
People talk a lot of shit after they have lost, taking that as an argument at evaluating any fighter is plain silly.
Beating Toney took him to the top. Incidentally Toney lost his very next fight to a 14 bout novice in Griffin - a Griffin who had beat nobody of note. Could Toney at this stage have been overrated?

Regardless Jones deserved to be at or near the top for years on end, but that is not the point here.
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Old 02-17-2008, 01:28 AM   #56
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Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

Roy has a better chance than most at beating a prime SRR. I wouldnt bet anything on it because I couldnt pick a winner!
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:42 AM   #57
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Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

I'm still trying to regain my composure after the 6 rounds comment...

JT puts down a great argument and he's even a fan of Jones, picking him to beat Marvin and Carlos.

The evidence is all with Robinson. You can watch a video as much as you like but if the oppoents are mediocre then you have to be careful on the conculsions you draw.
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Old 02-17-2008, 08:11 AM   #58
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You can watch a video as much as you like but if the oppoents are mediocre then you have to be careful on the conculsions you draw.
Totally agree. Robinson's opponents that we have film of are mediocre at best, yet some people think he looks cool and is surely going to beat a fighter who is leagues ahead of anyone Ray met at that weight.
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Old 02-17-2008, 10:00 AM   #59
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Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

due to the time robinson was boxing i think if he fought jones he would be stood there thinking "wtf is this quy doing, has he got a split personality with a game ****?"
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:53 AM   #60
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Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

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Totally agree. Robinson's opponents that we have film of are mediocre at best, yet some people think he looks cool and is surely going to beat a fighter who is leagues ahead of anyone Ray met at that weight.
All you've got to cling to at 160 is Hopkins. Robinson beat better many, many more fighters of his calibre that it's hard to believe you'd even bring it up.

You think Jones is leagues above but he didn't beat enough top fighters to prove it. Your evidence is paper thin.

Jones was a physical (enhanced) talent who had a style that was unorthadox. he got away with it because of his physical gifts. Robinson was physically better (if naturally smaller) and had technique that puts him on a different planet.

Roy got hit and KO'd when he was older because he didn't have a granite chin and his fundamentals weren't water-tight; Robinson has a tick next to both boxes.
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