Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-18-2008, 09:35 AM   #61
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,955
vCash: 1210
Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

Robinson mostly fought mediocre fighters at 160lb limit, what you talking about "better fighters"? LaMotta, Olson, Turpin, Graziano, Castellani, Fullmer, Basilio, Pender, all mediocre boxers skill-wise, cleverness-wise and talent-wise. And he lost to half of them, yet he's gonna beat Jones. Gimme a break. Giardello was the best opponent Robinson had after Gavilan, but the fight was above 160lb limit. I'm pretty sure Robinson would have lost to Giardello even if we took 1951 version of Robinson.
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 02-18-2008, 12:15 PM   #62
Ezzard
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,035
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

LaMotta and Turpin were far from mediocre. Maybe they look like that to you because they actually fought other top fighters. They didn't need half of the boxing media to shame them into taking fights.
Ezzard is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2008, 12:31 PM   #63
Raging B(_)LL
KAPOW!!!
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: "To win without risk is to triumph without glory"
Posts: 1,339
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Robinson mostly fought mediocre fighters at 160lb limit, what you talking about "better fighters"? LaMotta, Olson, Turpin, Graziano, Castellani, Fullmer, Basilio, Pender, all mediocre boxers skill-wise, cleverness-wise and talent-wise.
I don`t have the time right now to dissect this little tidbit of yours, but believe you me I`ll be here later this evening to take you to task on those comments. Your attempt at portraying the fighters you mentioned as being nothing but mindless, mediocre brutes is so far off base it isn`t funny. The fact that you have to resort to thrashing those fighters in order to elevate Jones and advance your argument is rather pathetic... idolatry is a dangerous thing and your idolatry of Jones is getting quite tiresome.
Raging B(_)LL is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2008, 12:45 PM   #64
Stonehands89
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,270
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

Raging Bull, dpw, and Meta posted gems on this thread.

...And I for one thoroughly enjoyed JT's debate with Senya and the impending rebuttal Raging Bull.
Stonehands89 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2008, 02:24 PM   #65
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,955
vCash: 1210
Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

I have seen all fighters I listed on film, and I'm fully aware of how limited they were skill-wise, cleverness-wise and talent-wise, so I stand by my words, and have made the above comment not to elevate Jones, but to express my opinion about how much overated that supposed "Golden age of middleweights" from the 1950s is.
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2008, 02:42 PM   #66
Sweet Pea
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: I never sleep, cuz sleep is the cousin of death
Posts: 13,604
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezzard
All you've got to cling to at 160 is Hopkins. Robinson beat better many, many more fighters of his calibre that it's hard to believe you'd even bring it up.

You think Jones is leagues above but he didn't beat enough top fighters to prove it. Your evidence is paper thin.

Jones was a physical (enhanced) talent who had a style that was unorthadox. he got away with it because of his physical gifts. Robinson was physically better (if naturally smaller) and had technique that puts him on a different planet.

Roy got hit and KO'd when he was older because he didn't have a granite chin and his fundamentals weren't water-tight; Robinson has a tick next to both boxes.
Not at all true.
Sweet Pea is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2008, 08:59 PM   #67
Raging B(_)LL
KAPOW!!!
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: "To win without risk is to triumph without glory"
Posts: 1,339
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

[quote=Senya13]

Quote:
Robinson mostly fought mediocre fighters at 160lb limit, what you talking about "better fighters"? LaMotta, Olson, Turpin, Graziano, Castellani, Fullmer, Basilio, Pender, all mediocre boxers skill-wise, cleverness-wise and talent-wise.
So, Senya here believes that the fighters mentioned in the post I quoted where, in his words, mediocre boxers skill-wise,cleverness-wise and talent-wise eh? Well, here is my retort to your ludicrous claims:

Lets start off with ol` Bobo, and examine him in depth as a fighter. I don`t know how you can claim he wasn`t a clever or skilled fighter, as the films of him clearly show he was a hard-working pressure fighter with great stamina. He knew how to stay on top of the slick boxers and break them down, and he was too smart for the slugger types.... what the old-timers called him a ring mechanic, if you will.

Having seen extensive footage of Bobo I can see that he was a cutie who slipped punches beautifully often making his opponents miss by less than an inch. He bobbed and weaved his way inside while hiding his face in a peek-a-boo shell and, above all kept punching while doing so. He was no great puncher, but Olson wore his opponents down with his steady attack, throwing some of his punches with a half-open glove if one looks closely.

Just look at his fight against Randy Turpin in which the brit started the fight well, but Olson wore him down on the inside, overwhelmed him on the ropes for long stretches of the fight and dropped him twice. There was a lot of skill and cleverness displayed in that fight on Bobos part, and for you to say otherwise smacks of utter ignorance. Bobo was fighting light-heavies and even heavyweights in the closing years of his career, and was still beating world-class opponents well into his 30s and yet your gonna call him mediocre?

A fighter who beat a veritable whos who over a career that spanned 21 years is no mediocre fighter by any stretch of the imagination. Here is a little tidbit that was told to me by a well respected member of the fight game in which he recalled an incident that illustrates what a competent fighter Olson was: “I can remember when Tiger Jones had beat Ray Robinson and Bobo just absolutely played with him [in Jones’s next bout]. In fact, I’ll never forget, he pulled Tiger Jones into him and was carrying on a conversation with Joe Louis at ringside.”

Mediocre fighter eh? Get outta here with that nonsense. I`ll be back a little later as I am not quite done yet.
Raging B(_)LL is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2008, 10:22 PM   #68
Raging B(_)LL
KAPOW!!!
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: "To win without risk is to triumph without glory"
Posts: 1,339
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

Lets examine Gene Fullmer now.

Gene wasn`t a classy looking boxer, but he sure was tricky and awkward to figure out in the ring. He would break his movements and move in opposite directions to break patterns, and he was also very versatile as he could either box, brawl or do a mixture of both.

In the first Robinson fight Gene constantly feinted Ray in their bout by slightly bending his knee as if he were about to throw a punch, and Ray would fall for it almost each time and lunge in with right hands or uppercuts that would miss by a foot, then when Ray was off balance Gene would tear into him before taking a step back and re-setting himself. I dunno about you, but it takes a skilled fighter to feint Ray into knots the way he did.

Unfortunately the idiot commentator kept commentating on how Gene's battle-plan was "simple", that he just flared in with two fists. The reason for this misconception(by so-called "experts") is because Gene LOOKED like a slugger. He had a flat-nose and rough composure and a round hard head. He admitted rabbit-punching Robinson repeatedly and I forget his EXACT words, but it was something like this, "If he wanted to put his head down so the only place I could hit him was the back of the head, I really didn't mind".

I'd also like to mention the Basilio fights where Fullmer boxed beautifully mainly in reverse all night picking Carmen apart. Amazing fights, by two very proud warriors. Fullmer fought in an odd cross arm defense (with his right hand below his left unlike most cross arm defenses) and it worked great for him. Gene's skilled use of elbows, laces, shoulders and headbutts should also be mentioned as they were a part of his arsenal and he used them effectively.

In summation, while his style might not have been pleasing to the eye (personally I enjoy watching him a great deal), there was a lot more to this tough Mormon from Utah then meets the eye if one looks closely. His defense was better than his awkward, plodding style suggested at first glance and if you have seen as much of Gene as I have (I have ALL his fights) it becomes clear that he was very versatile, cagey and intelligent in the ring.

To be continued...
Raging B(_)LL is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 04:47 AM   #69
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,955
vCash: 1210
Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

I can give you a hundred modern fighters who show skills and cleverness as good as either Olson or Fullmer, and they are considered, at best, good, but nothing special, mediocre boxers, some are contenders or even titlists.
I've seen highlights of Olson's fights with Moore and Torres and 3 fights with Robinson, he was very unimpressive on film, a very limited fighter.
Same for Gene Fullmer, whom I've seen vs Tiger, Lausse, Robinson (4 fights), Miceli, Basilio (2 fights), Fernandez, Paret, Giardello. Mediocre skills and little talent, sorry but I don't buy this exaggeration/overemphasis you have written above.
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 07:49 AM   #70
dpw417
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,421
vCash: 168
Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
I can give you a hundred modern fighters who show skills and cleverness as good as either Olson or Fullmer, and they are considered, at best, good, but nothing special, mediocre boxers, some are contenders or even titlists.
I've seen highlights of Olson's fights with Moore and Torres and 3 fights with Robinson, he was very unimpressive on film, a very limited fighter.
Same for Gene Fullmer, whom I've seen vs Tiger, Lausse, Robinson (4 fights), Miceli, Basilio (2 fights), Fernandez, Paret, Giardello. Mediocre skills and little talent, sorry but I don't buy this exaggeration/overemphasis you have written above.
You are belittling fighters whose credentials are considered Hall of Fame worthy by boxing historians. I'd safely say your viewpoint is very much in the minority and lacks any substantiative reasoning re the assessment of these fighters.
dpw417 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 08:07 AM   #71
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,955
vCash: 1210
Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

I'm not debating credentials / achievements, I'm saying they weren't very skillful, clever or talented. People like to belittle RJJ's run at 175lb, well, the 1950's middleweight division was no better than 175lb opposition Jones met and beat, both consisted of mostly medicore fighters (but Jones didn't struggle with his opponents, unlike Robinson, and they both were above their natural/best weight and advanced in years, so it can't be used an excuse for Robinson).
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 10:48 AM   #72
Raging B(_)LL
KAPOW!!!
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: "To win without risk is to triumph without glory"
Posts: 1,339
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

[quote=Senya13]

Quote:
I can give you a hundred modern fighters who show skills and cleverness as good as either Olson or Fullmer, and they are considered, at best, good, but nothing special, mediocre boxers, some are contenders or even titlists.
What a load of horseshit! Do you honestly believe that those modern fighters you are refferring to... wait a second, I just realized that there is no point in writing what I was just about to as it is clear as day that you honestly believe what you wrote above. In that case, you are offically a lost cause, so I won`t bother typing out a long detailed post in an attempt to show you the error of your ways.

But I have to ask you one thing, since both Bobo and Fullmer fought as middleweights and you claim that there are literally HUNDREDS of modern fighters who were just as good as them fighting today, do pray tell me which current middleweights you would consider to be just as good if not outright superior to these two?


Quote:
I've seen highlights of Olson's fights with Moore and Torres and 3 fights with Robinson, he was very unimpressive on film, a very limited fighter.
That is all you have seen of Olson? His two blowout losses to Moore and Torres and the last two fights against Robinson in which he was already on the slide? No wonder you hold him in such low esteem then, but that would be like someone basing their opinion of Jones as fighter after having watched the trilogy vs Tarver and the Johnson fight and nothing else.

But then again since you cannot seem to find any display of skill in the second Robinson bout either in which Bobo fought very well, I seriously doubt you would change your opinion if you saw some of his best performances. Knowing you, he would be nothing more than a slightly less mediocre bum among a field of very mediocre bums in era that was full of them according to you.

Quote:
Same for Gene Fullmer, whom I've seen vs Tiger, Lausse, Robinson (4 fights), Miceli, Basilio (2 fights), Fernandez, Paret, Giardello.
You saw no skill, cleverness and ring smarts on display in ANY of those fights? Then you sir are as blind as a bat, as most people would clearly say otherwise, but I guess you know better than the rest of us eh?

Quote:
Mediocre skills and little talent, sorry but I don't buy this exaggeration/overemphasis you have written above.
Shut your friggin piehole already with that crap. If ANYONE tends to exxagerate and overemphasize things it is YOU buddy, not me.
Raging B(_)LL is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 10:56 AM   #73
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,770
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
I'm not debating credentials / achievements, I'm saying they weren't very skillful, clever or talented. People like to belittle RJJ's run at 175lb, well, the 1950's middleweight division was no better than 175lb opposition Jones met and beat, both consisted of mostly medicore fighters (but Jones didn't struggle with his opponents, unlike Robinson, and they both were above their natural/best weight and advanced in years, so it can't be used an excuse for Robinson).
Well, one of the guys you mentioned was Gene Fullmer, and I can tell you that he was no mindless oaf. He was a clever fighter who could have troubled even the greatest of middleweights.
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 11:06 AM   #74
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,770
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

This shit about Robinson fighting mediocre opponents isn't really being backed up here. It also hasn't seemed to phase anyone that Robinson not only fought top fighters who were talented but fought them often. In 1951 for example, he fought 11 times which included some 3 or 4 title fights. I can't think of any champions today who can claim that.
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 11:22 AM   #75
Raging B(_)LL
KAPOW!!!
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: "To win without risk is to triumph without glory"
Posts: 1,339
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

[quote=Senya13]

Quote:
I'm not debating credentials / achievements, I'm saying they weren't very skillful, clever or talented.
If I were to take the above comment literally, then that would mean that while you do not dispute their ring accomplishments, you still consider them mediocre fighters? I`m sorry, but you don`t carve out a hof career for yourself beating some of the best fighters of your era and reigning as THE one and only champion if you are a mediocre fighter.


Quote:
People like to belittle RJJ's run at 175lb, well, the 1950's middleweight division was no better than 175lb opposition Jones met and beat, both consisted of mostly medicore fighters (but Jones didn't struggle with his opponents, unlike Robinson, and they both were above their natural/best weight and advanced in years, so it can't be used an excuse for Robinson).
I think I can confidently say that most people would agree with me that the middleweight division of the 50s had a far more superior and talented crop of fighters than the ones Jones fought while at 175. And how convenient of you to overlook the fact that while Jones had only fought 31 times before moving up to 175lbs, Robinson had just over one hundred fights before moving up to middleweight and against much better opposition than Jones fought.

Also, Robinson had engaged in far more physically taxing and bruising affairs than Jones who frankly had never been in that kind of fight at the time he decided to move to 175. He also didn`t fight nearly as often as the Sugar Man did and thus did not have as much wear and tear on his body as he did. So the fact that Ray did as well as he did even while he was slipping and against natually bigger men once he moved up is a testament to just how great a fighter he was.

So what if he struggled every now and then? On a few occasions he didn`t train as hard as he should have and this cost him some fights he should have won, and other times he was just outhustled by the younger and hungrier fighters looking to make a name for themselves against him late in his career. I dunno about you, but that is more impressive to me than seeing your fighter laid out for the count from a single left hand against a distinctly average lightheavyweight, and then knocked unconscious by an equally average and nowhere close to being a great fighter in Johnson.

So while Ray was struggling as an old man at least he had the excuses of having a ton of mileage on him, having fought most of the best fighters of his era during his prime and defeating all of them and continuing to have some measure of success at an age when most fighters are looking at retirement and losing far more fights than they are winning. Jones on the other hand doesn`t have the excuses of having been in many a great and physically demanding fights in his youth, yet still managed to get cold****ed by two good but by no means great fighters at the age of 35.

Ray started losing more regularly at that age too, but at least he wasn`t getting himself knocked out by average fighters and he sure didn`t become gunshy once he lost more regularly unlike Jones who has clearly become gunshy since his two KO losses. He was content to last the distance against Tarver in their rubbermatch instead of trying to avenge his loss, that to me speaks volumes about the man`s heart and mentaliy as a fighter. Ray may have been old and struggling in his old age, but you better believe he came to win each time out and not to prance and dance to the crowd while trying to impress judges with his ridiculous showboating and avoiding getting knocked out by stinking out the joint.

Last edited by Raging B(_)LL; 02-19-2008 at 11:42 AM.
Raging B(_)LL is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013