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Old 02-13-2008, 04:02 PM   #1
Mendoza
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Default What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

What if the Rumble in the jungle was moved to Madison Square Garden?

What if the ring did not have loose ropes, the building wasn't steamy hot, the crowd had some Foreman fans, and the fight took place around 11:00PM instead of wee hours of the morning?

Do you think the match would play out differently? I do. Foreman would not gas a quickly as he did, Ali would have a harder time leaning back on the ropes. Move this fight to the USA, and I think Foreman does much better. I’m not saying he would win. I’m saying the fight goes longer, and Foreman has better chance of winning.
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:21 PM   #2
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
What if the Rumble in the jungle was moved to Madison Square Garden?

What if the ring did not have loose ropes, the building wasn't steamy hot, the crowd had some Foreman fans, and the fight took place around 11:00PM instead of wee hours of the morning?

Do you think the match would play out differently? I do. Foreman would not gas a quickly as he did, Ali would have a harder time leaning back on the ropes. Move this fight to the USA, and I think Foreman does much better. Iím not saying he would win. Iím saying the fight goes longer, and Foreman has better chance of winning.
Everything was against George in Africa (but it was his fault for agreeing to it).

I see the fight as a toss-up.
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:29 PM   #3
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

I think people forget, rope-a-dope was made up by the now Sir David Frost in the post fight interview.

Ali and Dundee decided movement was the way to beat Foreman, but Ali was 32 not 22, and literally all he could do after round one (where he tried to move prime Ali style), was lean on the ropes against the hulking Foreman, and it worked a treat.

MSG, 20th May Stadium, Wembley Stadium or where ever; loose, normal or tight ropes; it may of teken a little longer and been a bit more painful for Ali, but in the end I see the same result; Ali by stoppage.
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:31 PM   #4
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Going in to the fight I would say Foreman, if he gave it any thought, probably was satisfied with the conditions, with exception for the hostile crowd of course.

The small ring, humid atmosphere and slow, soggy canvas would definitely seem to be to Foreman's advantage considering it made Ali's plan A, which was to dance, much harder to execute. Only knowing what actually ocurred could possible make all this seem to be an advantage for Ali.

But that's because Ali knew how to adapt, while Foreman didn't, not because the conditions actually favoured him. Could Foreman have chosen conditions beforehand I think he would have chosen those that existed in the fight. Well, probably a somewhat friendlier crowd, perhaps.

I've never heard any actual evidence for the ropes being loose. Dundee said he actually wanted them tightened, because he was afraid Ali could fall out of the ring, which was elevated high above ringside.
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Old 02-13-2008, 05:53 PM   #5
clark
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Ali had him mentally. Ali would still have found a way to win.
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Old 02-13-2008, 06:25 PM   #6
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Seeing what happened, Ali just got in George's head. An older and
wiser Foreman might not have let it bother him but '74 Foreman did.
Also, George was way over-confident. This worked against him in
the fight.
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Old 02-13-2008, 06:57 PM   #7
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

I gave it some thought, and I still take Ali. Maybe a decision, but I still take him to win.

I think he had a lot left in the tank. George would still run out of steam and Ali would box the socks off of him.
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:22 PM   #8
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

it would be closer, but this was a Foreman who did not clinch, always came in and was set to land bombs on his opponent until his opponent was destroyed.
He was still going to be slower, he would still be moving in on Ali. I would say the outcome would be a little closer, but still the same. Foreman was the kind of opponent that Ali was especially adept at facing. Foreman might land some cleaner shots, but Ali was still in better shape here than when he fought Shavers and I think that he still punches himself out trying to take Ali's head off.
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:28 AM   #9
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langford
it would be closer, but this was a Foreman who did not clinch, always came in and was set to land bombs on his opponent until his opponent was destroyed.
He was still going to be slower, he would still be moving in on Ali. I would say the outcome would be a little closer, but still the same. Foreman was the kind of opponent that Ali was especially adept at facing. Foreman might land some cleaner shots, but Ali was still in better shape here than when he fought Shavers and I think that he still punches himself out trying to take Ali's head off.
Good analysis Langford. George would have always tried to take Ali's head off,.. kinda like my fellow Texan thought about shooting down that UFO with a deer rifle a couple a weeks ago. We just never learn.
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:31 AM   #10
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Foreman would have won.

The ropes would be far tigher, rendering the leaning back all but useless. The ropes in that fight were so loose it was ridiculous.

Foreman wouldn't be completely mentally destroyed like he was in Africa. He had that entire continent against him and he was so paranoid he was having his own food flown in.

Ali was training every day down there as he and the rest of his protege literally had nothing else to do. In Dundee's words, he was in the best shape of his life.

Wouldn't of been that much harder on George in a air conditioned enviroment.
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:48 AM   #11
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

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Originally Posted by clark
Ali had him mentally. Ali would still have found a way to win.

My sentiments exactly. Ali at that time was a ring genius who would still have kayoed Foreman. In Africa, Foreman was ready to go by the end of the fifth round. Ali let him hang around until the eighth when Dundee admonished him to get Foreman out of there.
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:53 AM   #12
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
What if the Rumble in the jungle was moved to Madison Square Garden?

What if the ring did not have loose ropes, the building wasn't steamy hot, the crowd had some Foreman fans, and the fight took place around 11:00PM instead of wee hours of the morning?

Do you think the match would play out differently? I do. Foreman would not gas a quickly as he did, Ali would have a harder time leaning back on the ropes. Move this fight to the USA, and I think Foreman does much better. Iím not saying he would win. Iím saying the fight goes longer, and Foreman has better chance of winning.
This is of course assuming that George actually lost from heat exhaustion as he originally claimed. Over the years, the story has evovled several times, and I believe the latest claim is poisoning. Anyway, at some point I'd like to have a private conversation with you about this fight, perhaps through the private message chain. I have my suspicians as to the integrity of the outcome, and I'd like to have your take on it.
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Old 02-14-2008, 01:48 AM   #13
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Why through pm, Magoo? I for one would be very interested in your thoughts.

I'm not so sure Ali had George mentally. I think it's a fallacy. If anything, it was Ali who was plagued by self-doubt before the fight. Archie Moore sent him a particularly disturbing poem about what George was going to do to him, and it (among other things) unnerved him somewhat.

As has been said, just nothing went right for Foreman in Zaire. He got cut, he feared poisoning, he could not leave the country and Ali was being received like a god over there. I don't think he enjoyed his stay in Zaire for one moment.

Would the outcome be different elsewhere? I don't know. Foreman always had trouble with boxers and Ali had that knack of pulling a rabbit out of the hat when he needed to.
I tend to think that the result (a win for Ali) is still most likely, but probably on points.
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Old 02-14-2008, 01:57 AM   #14
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

George actually had the breed of dog that was used to abuse people in Africa as a pet during his time there. He didn't know at the time, but come on... Those people ****ing hated him to the point where he thought he was being cursed by witch doctors.

Anyone have the poem Moore wrote to Ali?
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Old 02-14-2008, 02:03 AM   #15
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Someone may be able to quote it from "The greatest." Unfortunately I don't have the book anymore.
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