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Old 02-14-2008, 02:16 AM   #16
Calroid
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Watch the fight again. Ali knew he had George beat by the 2nd round. It was the case of a master against a student. The humidity, ropes etc.. had nothing to do with it. Ali was just the superior fighter at the time.
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Old 02-14-2008, 02:21 AM   #17
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Then Ali wouldn't have tired quickly from dancing around - from the 'heavy' ring - and would've KO'd Foreman in 11 in a much prettier display.
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Old 02-14-2008, 04:03 AM   #18
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by clark
Ali had him mentally. Ali would still have found a way to win.

Seconded.
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Old 02-14-2008, 04:05 AM   #19
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj
Going in to the fight I would say Foreman, if he gave it any thought, probably was satisfied with the conditions, with exception for the hostile crowd of course.

The small ring, humid atmosphere and slow, soggy canvas would definitely seem to be to Foreman's advantage considering it made Ali's plan A, which was to dance, much harder to execute. Only knowing what actually ocurred could possible make all this seem to be an advantage for Ali.

But that's because Ali knew how to adapt, while Foreman didn't, not because the conditions actually favoured him. Could Foreman have chosen conditions beforehand I think he would have chosen those that existed in the fight. Well, probably a somewhat friendlier crowd, perhaps.

I've never heard any actual evidence for the ropes being loose. Dundee said he actually wanted them tightened, because he was afraid Ali could fall out of the ring, which was elevated high above ringside.
Exactly, a lot of hindsight is used post Rumble. Going into the bout most (The Sun picked Ali) thought Foreman had all the edges, including the psychological one.
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Old 02-14-2008, 04:33 AM   #20
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

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Originally Posted by TBooze
Exactly, a lot of hindsight is used post Rumble. Going into the bout most (The Sun picked Ali) thought Foreman had all the edges, including the psychological one.
The S*n, eh? Speaks volumes.
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Old 02-14-2008, 04:41 AM   #21
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
What if the Rumble in the jungle was moved to Madison Square Garden?

What if the ring did not have loose ropes, the building wasn't steamy hot, the crowd had some Foreman fans, and the fight took place around 11:00PM instead of wee hours of the morning?

Do you think the match would play out differently? I do. Foreman would not gas a quickly as he did, Ali would have a harder time leaning back on the ropes. Move this fight to the USA, and I think Foreman does much better. Iím not saying he would win. Iím saying the fight goes longer, and Foreman has better chance of winning.

Your point is well made.

But Ali used the factors at his disposal to his advantage in Africa almost perfectly. It seems unlikley to me that Jess Willard would have done the same - this is what great ring generalship is.

In New York, in an air conditioned Madison, different factors come in to play, different circumstances exsist for exploitation. Great general that he was (baring in mind that he is in with a man who is not a great ring general) Ali probably would have found and exploited these.

Ali TKO8 is about as likely as any other result in my view.

Last edited by dre; 02-13-2007 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:52 AM   #22
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

A muggy outdoor fight takes a few rounds of a fighters stamina for sure. The hot night, and a pro Ali crowd ate away at Foreman and made it tougher for him to focus. Those loose ropes helped Ali avoid punches. Take away these X-factors, and the fight will play out differently.
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:57 AM   #23
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Foreman got up after being floored by Ali and walked to his corner, quite fine.

He's going to be quite capable of getting up in an environment that he doesn't feel completely mentally oppressed and defeated before the fact in.

Do you really think he lacked the ability to get up and continue fighting looking at his fight with Lyle?
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Old 02-14-2008, 07:09 AM   #24
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
What if the Rumble in the jungle was moved to Madison Square Garden?
It would be "The Rumble In The Garden".
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Old 02-14-2008, 07:11 AM   #25
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Did anybody actually have Foreman ahead at the time of the stoppage? Because I had him behind by a mile...and I don't think Foreman is stopping Ali. In fact I think Foreman is the most overated composite puncher of them all.

Ali is all wrong for Foreman in my view, because he's a genius and a stylist.

In addition - Ali goes to the ropes specifically because of the conditions. He's moving better for longer in the fight as described.
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Old 02-14-2008, 07:21 AM   #26
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Did anybody actually have Foreman ahead at the time of the stoppage? Because I had him behind by a mile...and I don't think Foreman is stopping Ali. In fact I think Foreman is the most overated composite puncher of them all.

Ali is all wrong for Foreman in my view, because he's a genius and a stylist.

In addition - Ali goes to the ropes specifically because of the conditions. He's moving better for longer in the fight as described.
Ali did not have the legs to move for 15 rounds in 1974. He needed the ropes, and from this fight to finish used them often. I had Ali up by 4-5 rounds too, but I do think Foreman’s punches lost their steam well before he was stopped. Foreman punches would have more steam inside an air conditioning building.

In boxing, the worst thing to do is to put your back on normal ropes. It pins you, and limits your lateral footwork and backwards defensive movements.

However, in Zaire the ropes were loose and allowed Ali to lean back several inches, which made it harder for Foreman to hit him. Ali himself said he was out on his feet three times vs Foreman. If this is true, surely a fresher Foreman would have done more damage.
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Old 02-14-2008, 07:32 AM   #27
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Ali did not have the legs to move for 15 rounds in 1974.
Obviously. My point was that he wouldn't have to go to the ropes in round two, like he did in the fight in Zaire. In that instance he has to survive for a certain number of rounds after using movement and speed and genius to outbox Foreman for a single round. In New York,perhaps he would outbox Foreman for four rounds, or five rounds. The fight could even play out in a similair fashion but for more rounds.

Quote:
He needed the ropes, and from this fight to finish used them often. I had Ali up by 4-5 rounds too, but I do think Foremanís punches lost their steam well before he was stopped. Foreman punches would have more steam inside an air conditioning building.
I agree with all of this - but as to punches, yes they would have had more steam in round two but stamina is a general issue for that Foreman. If Ali takes him dancing for 5 or 6, wins 4 or 5, stings Foreman a few times (as in rounds 1 and 5) Foreman will probably be about as used up in round 10, after taking Ali on in the ropes, as he was late in Zaire.

Quote:
In boxing, the worst thing to do is to put your back on normal ropes. It pins you, and limits your lateral footwork and backwards defensive movements.
But it tends to work for the absolute masters, Pep, Mayweather, Jones etc. Ali qualifies.

Last edited by Nawfal; 02-13-2007 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 02-14-2008, 07:37 AM   #28
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

I dont see what difference the loose ropes made, to be honest.

Foreman's problem actually seemed to be his over-eagerness to crowd Ali, and his punches were shortened by his own pressuring tactics. Foreman liked to throw long punches, that was how he got his leverage. But against Ali he bulled straight in and Ali smothered him, forcing himself to throw shorter ones, taking the sting out of his shots.
Most of the punches landed on Ali's arms or went AROUND Ali's head. So I dont understamd the loose ropes theory.
Ali could lay on tight ropes and smother Foreman's shots just as well.

Foreman could perhaps have won that fight if he had used his jab and taken his time. He should have changed tactics when Ali starting rope-a-dope, he should have stood off, jabbed, jabbed to the body, picked his shots, slowed to pace, and blocked some of Ali's counters.

Foreman lost because he lacked experience and a boxing brain. Ali was just a better, cleverer fighter at the time. Foreman had had a relatively easy run up til then. Beating Frazier and Norton so easily had made him think he could KO anyone quick, so he just got dumber.

The excuses being put forward for Foreman, his "mental state", the Africa factor, and all that crap, is pure revisionism. Foreman was a MASSIVE FAVOURITE, Ali was a massive underdog "going to his own execution". After the event, everyone blames the environment, and it suits Ali fans and Foreman fans alike. Ali fans love the myth of his "magic" and his "psyching" Foreman, and getting the whole of Zaire to "psyche" Foreman. And Foreman fans use it as an excuse. Truth is, even most of Ali's entourage thought he'd get smashed. And I'm sure when that first bell rang Foreman was 100% confident.

It's revisionism to say "everything was against Foreman" when the feeling among almost everyone in boxing was that this was gonna be Ali's last fight, he was gonna be retired by Foreman, (HOPEFULLY NOT KILLED), but brutally defeated for sure.
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Old 02-14-2008, 07:49 AM   #29
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

foreman for me i think not just the heat the whole africa factor was massive
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Old 02-14-2008, 07:53 AM   #30
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Even with Foreman fighting a very "anxious" fight, his abuse still had Ali pissing blood for a week. Literally.

The punishment was there. Ali himself admits he was out on his feet.

Take away the entire continent of Africa breathing down George's neck, I think he could of won it.
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