Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-14-2008, 07:53 AM   #31
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,181
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Ali did not have the legs to move for 15 rounds in 1974. He needed the ropes, and from this fight to finish used them often. I had Ali up by 4-5 rounds too, but I do think Foremanís punches lost their steam well before he was stopped. Foreman punches would have more steam inside an air conditioning building.
He moved well enough for 12 rounds in the Garden against Frazier earlier that year, and Foreman wasn't as good at applying constant pressure for 15 rds as Frazier, much due to inferior stamina. I think it would be enough for Ali to dance for 5 or 6 rounds while stinging Foreman with jabs and lead rights to take the edge of him. Ali was smart enough to trick Foreman into missing with wild swings and wearing him out. In the middle rounds and onwards Ali would probably slow down some for a round and then go back on his toes, wearing Foreman down and looking for oppornities to land telling blows. In the end the result would be the same.

As I said I think the argument that the conditions in Africa favoured Ali is seriously flawed. Going into the fight everyone would have thought that the small ring, humidity etc. was to Foreman's advantage. But since Ali won it's all of a sudden to his advantage? Ali had after all trained and prepared for a fight were he moved a lot, conditions that made this plan that much harder to execute can hardly be said to favour him.
Bokaj is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 02-14-2008, 08:13 AM   #32
hdog
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 157
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Ali did not have the legs to move for 15 rounds in 1974.
Didn't need 'em since Foreman obviously didn't have the stamina to pursue Ali for 15 rounds.
hdog is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2008, 08:15 AM   #33
Sonny's jab
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

For those who say"everything in Africa was against Foreman" - Imagine if the roles had been reversed.

1.Ali is a massive favourite to destroy Foreman, but not at all popular with the Zaire crowd. He's depressed and unhappy and just wants to get it over with and go home. He's in the shape of his life.

2. The Zaire people love George, but all the boxing writers and even members of his own entourage were openly saying he's in big trouble. "He's gonna get destroyed", he has no real chance of victory. He seems to be enjoying his time in Africa though.

What happens ?

I reckon Ali beats Foreman in that situation, with the crowd chanting "Foreman bomaye" sullenly silenced while Ali knocks out the crowd-favourite. (Ali's emphatic victory is booed and riots break out, and people are shot, but that's another story.)

The "mental" and "emotional" based on "environment" excuses for Foreman just dont cut it.
 Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2008, 08:19 AM   #34
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,081
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Interesting post SJ.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2008, 08:25 AM   #35
TBooze
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: South of London
Posts: 10,831
vCash: 0
Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
For those who say"everything in Africa was against Foreman" - Imagine if the roles had been reversed.

2. The Zaire people love George, but all the boxing writers and even members of his own entourage were openly saying he's in big trouble. "He's gonna get destroyed", he has no real chance of victory. He seems to be enjoying his time in Africa though.
Not a million miles from happening....

The people of Zaire were suprised that Foreman was the blacker fighter, and he would of had his fair share of support but for one really, really silly act.

He came out of the plane (when he first landed in Zaire) with his German Sheppard dog.

The breed of dog used by the Belgians to control the uprising in Congo's (Zaire's) fight for independence.
TBooze is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2008, 09:36 AM   #36
Longhhorn71
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,594
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBooze
Not a million miles from happening....

The people of Zaire were suprised that Foreman was the blacker fighter, and he would of had his fair share of support but for one really, really silly act.

He came out of the plane (when he first landed in Zaire) with his German Sheppard dog.

The breed of dog used by the Belgians to control the uprising in Congo's (Zaire's) fight for independence.
Good info TBooze.

Also, Ali yelling in unison with the crowd: "Ali bomeye ---Ali kill him" (however you spell it) was not the most comforting thing for
George, and would not be politically correct in MSG then or by
today's standards.
Longhhorn71 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2008, 09:47 AM   #37
Chaney
Mystery and Imagination
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Starving in the belly of a whale
Posts: 259
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell
Anyone have the poem Moore wrote to Ali?
Your poetry is nothing but rhyme,
Fifteen rounds is a long time.
Frazier couldn't even make two,
Ken Norton was the victim of George's Coup.

Foreman's left will make you dance,
Dance Turkey in the Straw.
When his right connects with your lower mandible,
Goodbye jaw.

The truth must be told.
You've gotten to old
To win the Big Gold.


From The Greatest (pps 472-3)

It was also the letter that accompanied the poem that disturbed Ali...(it's too long to type out in full, sorry). Ali respected and had learnt a lot from Archie as his student.

So phrases like "George will half kill you" and "This leap isn't just going to cripple your future, it's going to cripple you ego." got to Ali a bit. Knowing that Archie, Dick Sadler and Sandy Saddler were devising strategies for the beast, Forman to corner and pound on him would have been worrying for Ali, as it would be for anybody!
Chaney is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2008, 10:02 AM   #38
Chaney
Mystery and Imagination
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Starving in the belly of a whale
Posts: 259
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square

In answer to the OP, I think that stylistically, Ali would always have a big edge over Foreman. (conversely, Ali would always have to struggle and dig deep against Frazier.) Also, he was a FAR more adaptable and mentally strong fighter than Foreman.

If Jimmy Young could beat Foreman, so could Ali. Sure, Ali played on every advantage he could in Zaire. But he would have found other advantages to play on in New York. Remember, Forman was thought to be an invincible destroyer at this time. Ali was the underdog, and under pressure from other sources (as I outlined from Moore's letter above. Also, sparring partners who had worked with both George and Ali told Ali he would lose. Ali's own camp thought he would lose, and were totally glum pre-fight. Allegedly, Herbert Mohammed offered a bribe to the referee to stop the fight early if Ali was getting hurt.)

The fact is that Ali could handle all the pressure much better than Foreman.

It might be tougher than Zaire, but I think that Ali simply had George's number, wherever they fought. George was nowhere near the challenge to Ali that Joe Frazier was.
Chaney is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2008, 11:51 AM   #39
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,431
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
Why through pm, Magoo? I for one would be very interested in your thoughts.
Very well then, since you were kind enough to read my post and pay my opinions respect, than I'll share my thoughts. Though one of the reasons why I was going to chat with Mendoza privately, is because I don't want people to attack me for forming conspiracy theories over one of Muhammad Ali's greatest victories ever, but here goes.

I have always given Ali tremendous credit and respect for his victory over George Foreman. He was a 3-1 underdog facing impossible odds, and perhaps even having his physical health permanantely damaged. Foreman seemed to have tired around the 6th or 7th round, and by the 8th, appeared to be a thorughly exhausted fighter. Or was he?

There were some fairly touchy political overtones circulating around this fight, but not in America. This was not an issue of black vs white, rich vs poor, or the humble vs the flamboyant. This rather, was a situation in which nearly the entire country of Zaire was welcoming only one of its guests, while showing far less hospitality to the other. For months prior to the fight, Zaire citizens were running through the streets chanting " Ali bumaya" Meaning - Ali Kill him! This was a third world country who's majority of citizens were partial to Ali. I don't know much about the Zaire population or demographics in 1974, but it wouldn't surprise me to hear if there was a muslim segment of the populus. Not to jump to conclusions here, but I've often wondered if Foreman's safety was a concern that had crossed both George's mind, and the people who surrounded him.

This was one of the first real big superfights that Don King had ever promoted. He had already promoted a few others, but this was probably his biggest production thus far. Muhammad Ali was the first fighter that King used to infiltrate the world of promoting, and understood fully that although he was aging, Ali still held a great deal of public appeal. Note, following the Foreman fight, George never received a rematch, and many of Ali's bouts were against contender's who's credibility was questionable, Evangelista, Coopman, Spinks, etc. Of course he did fight Lyle, Shavers, Norton and Frazier, but there was plenty of padding in between. I wonder if Don King wanted to protect his investment, and to make a long story short, arranged for Foreman to take a dive, with perhaps the promise that he might get another opportunity at some point in the future.

When we watch this fight on film, it would almost appear, that after staggering around the ring, George is looking for a place to fall before actually crashing to the canvas. The reports of loose ropes in the ring, perhaps making it easier for Ali to lean back and take some of the sting off those punches. Plus, wasn't the ropes one of Foreman's favorite places to have his foes? Personally, I think its possible that if George had truly wanted to hurt Ali, while having him up against a wall, no matter how flexible those ropes were, he could have. These claims about heat exhaustion don't sit well with me either. Ali was the older of the two men, and supposedly taking the worse crap beating, or so it would appear. You'd think that if anyone was going to drop due to the climate it would have been him. Yes, Foreman struggled with good boxers as we saw later against jimmy Young, but no one else would ever knock him out, and the Foreman who fought Young was not a terribly motivated version of George anyway.

I make no convictions about what happened, and frankly I think that I'm probably wrong and imagining things, but I'm not so sure that it was Muhammad Ali that Goerge Foreman was looking to surivive that evening.

Last edited by mr. magoo; 02-14-2008 at 12:20 PM.
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2008, 12:38 PM   #40
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,081
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

It's fair enough to ask Mr.Magoo. God knows i've worked hard enough at the Liston-Ali conspiracy. But I just don't see anything in this post.

There wer muslims in that country at that time (supposedly about a quarter of the population now and growing) - but they were not in any sort of majority, and they were not the ruling class.

Foreman got hit really really hard multiple times whilst of balance.

Foreman actually hits Ali many times really hard. If it's a dive it's the "best of all times" as the man himself might have said...compare it to ListonII for example.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2008, 12:57 PM   #41
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,431
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
It's fair enough to ask Mr.Magoo. God knows i've worked hard enough at the Liston-Ali conspiracy. But I just don't see anything in this post.

There wer muslims in that country at that time (supposedly about a quarter of the population now and growing) - but they were not in any sort of majority, and they were not the ruling class.

Foreman got hit really really hard multiple times whilst of balance.

Foreman actually hits Ali many times really hard. If it's a dive it's the "best of all times" as the man himself might have said...compare it to ListonII for example.
Well, I wasn't basing my suspicians EXCLUSIVELY on the possibility that there was a large Muslim population, but your points are well taken. I guess we'll never know for sure.
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2008, 01:15 PM   #42
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,081
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Well, I wasn't basing my suspicians EXCLUSIVELY on the possibility that there was a large Muslim population, but your points are well taken. I guess we'll never know for sure.
I think that it's fair enough to ask this question.

But speaking personally, i'm as happy as it's possible to be that that fight was on the level.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2008, 01:31 PM   #43
groove
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,028
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Ali could dance ok in Frazier 2 which was in 1974. But he couldn't v Foreman. Wondered why? Fact is Foreman knew he was gonna win before the fight, didn't care where it was held. In the fight he was outsmarted. He wasted punches whilst Ali picked his shots and outspeeded him. Ali wanted to get Foreman mad in the ring so he would go wild. His mind games in the ring worked. Foreman rushed and wasted his shots and tired himself out. Foreman was used to knocking all his opponents out early and thought Ali would be no different. Going in to the Ali fight he hadn't gone more than 4 rounds in a very long time.
groove is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2008, 03:00 PM   #44
Sonny's jab
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Foreman threw the fight ??
 Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2008, 02:18 AM   #45
fists of fury
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: March for Revenge
Posts: 6,030
vCash: 1887
Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaney
Your poetry is nothing but rhyme,
Fifteen rounds is a long time.
Frazier couldn't even make two,
Ken Norton was the victim of George's Coup.

Foreman's left will make you dance,
Dance Turkey in the Straw.
When his right connects with your lower mandible,
Goodbye jaw.

The truth must be told.
You've gotten to old
To win the Big Gold.

From The Greatest (pps 472-3)

It was also the letter that accompanied the poem that disturbed Ali...(it's too long to type out in full, sorry). Ali respected and had learnt a lot from Archie as his student.

So phrases like "George will half kill you" and "This leap isn't just going to cripple your future, it's going to cripple you ego." got to Ali a bit. Knowing that Archie, Dick Sadler and Sandy Saddler were devising strategies for the beast, Forman to corner and pound on him would have been worrying for Ali, as it would be for anybody!
Ta, Chaney.
I really must get another copy of the book.
fists of fury is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013