Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-24-2014, 08:32 PM   #1
BillB
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 887
vCash: 500
Default Liston without Ali

I did a thread like this quite awhile ago. It had some good posts.
There are some new forum members since then that may have some interesting input.

If Ali had never existed, what would have happened to Liston?

How long would he have been champion?
Would he have retired?
Would he have been defeated?
Who would have defeated him?

Liston's next fight after Patterson would probably have been another fight with Machen. I don't think he would have been a problem.
He would also have fought Chivalo somewhere down the line.
Johansson is another possibility. Johansson tried to avoid Liston, but he may have changed his mind for another title shot.

I think Liston would have kept fighting until he lost. He didn't take care of his money and would have stayed broke.
BillB is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 09-24-2014, 08:52 PM   #2
swagdelfadeel
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 605
vCash: 500
Default Re: Liston without Ali

i think he would've retired as champion some people say he would've been beaten by frazier in 69 i used to agree now i dont. i disagree because cus steered him away from liston even when liston was just a shell. Two guys who worked with Liston claimed that 'Sonny would've made a Frazier fight just as one sided as when Big George demolished Joe in Jamaica'. this was refering to when frazier was champ and ali was in exile. i also dont think leotis martin would beat him because i feel their 69 fight was a fluke because liston was sick with the flu before the fight and he was also drinking.
swagdelfadeel is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2014, 09:08 PM   #3
tennis
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,689
vCash: 500
Default Re: Liston without Ali

probably retires as the champ and goes down as the best ever

a 40+ liston would beat foreman though, as long as he made even the slightest hint of training
tennis is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2014, 10:10 PM   #4
timmers612
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,427
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston without Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by swagdelfadeel View Post
i think he would've retired as champion some people say he would've been beaten by frazier in 69 i used to agree now i dont. i disagree because cus steered him away from liston even when liston was just a shell. Two guys who worked with Liston claimed that 'Sonny would've made a Frazier fight just as one sided as when Big George demolished Joe in Jamaica'. this was refering to when frazier was champ and ali was in exile. i also dont think leotis martin would beat him because i feel their 69 fight was a fluke because liston was sick with the flu before the fight and he was also drinking.
Cus was never involved with Frazier, Durham doing mostly the managing and Futch the bulk of the training. Interestingly I don't recall anyone pushing for a late 60's bout between the two, had Liston got the win over Martin that may well have changed. Had there not been an Ali - Liston's chin may have been hit by one of Henry's left hooks or Ingemar's right hands in title defences but neither was built to hold up against him. Terrell wasn't any ball of fire to worry about if Sonny could still get in top shape nor would Chuvalo be a concern. Down the line he'd have to meet the comeing around Quarry or Frazier and who knows if he would have enough left there, I don't think so.
timmers612 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2014, 11:57 AM   #5
Stevie G
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London,England
Posts: 9,424
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston without Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by timmers612 View Post
Cus was never involved with Frazier, Durham doing mostly the managing and Futch the bulk of the training. Interestingly I don't recall anyone pushing for a late 60's bout between the two, had Liston got the win over Martin that may well have changed. Had there not been an Ali - Liston's chin may have been hit by one of Henry's left hooks or Ingemar's right hands in title defences but neither was built to hold up against him. Terrell wasn't any ball of fire to worry about if Sonny could still get in top shape nor would Chuvalo be a concern. Down the line he'd have to meet the comeing around Quarry or Frazier and who knows if he would have enough left there, I don't think so.

Sonny would obviously have reigned as champion quite a bit longer had Muhammad not been on the scene. It's possible that Ernie Terrel would have beaten an old Liston. Around 1966
Stevie G is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2014, 12:15 PM   #6
timmers612
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,427
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston without Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie G View Post
Sonny would obviously have reigned as champion quite a bit longer had Muhammad not been on the scene. It's possible that Ernie Terrel would have beaten an old Liston. Around 1966
Ernie was abit of a puzzle to me. A few before his bout with Ali thought both his jab and right hand were superior to Muhammad's but he would seldom let either one of them just go. We talked and he showed me how Ali thumbed him in the 1st round basically ending the fight but I'm not betting he would have thrown enough to make it close anyways. I agree with you that unless Ernie just went into a shell he would be favored over the getting older Sonny.
timmers612 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2014, 01:19 PM   #7
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,557
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston without Ali

I suspect that he would have lost the title before much longer.

Once a champion stops taking their training seriously, they are only heading in one direction.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2014, 03:58 PM   #8
swagdelfadeel
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 605
vCash: 500
Default Re: Liston without Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by timmers612 View Post
Cus was never involved with Frazier, Durham doing mostly the managing and Futch the bulk of the training. Interestingly I don't recall anyone pushing for a late 60's bout between the two, had Liston got the win over Martin that may well have changed. Had there not been an Ali - Liston's chin may have been hit by one of Henry's left hooks or Ingemar's right hands in title defences but neither was built to hold up against him. Terrell wasn't any ball of fire to worry about if Sonny could still get in top shape nor would Chuvalo be a concern. Down the line he'd have to meet the comeing around Quarry or Frazier and who knows if he would have enough left there, I don't think so.
i meant Durham and Futch. my bad
swagdelfadeel is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2014, 04:00 PM   #9
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,725
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston without Ali

He was an alcoholic by Patterson II I reckon.

Someone would have got him.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2014, 04:27 PM   #10
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,557
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston without Ali

Here is another way to look at it.

Has any champion ever had a long title reign while not training properly for title fights, and drinking heavily before them?

It just doesn’t happen.

The only example I can think of is Sullivan, and he fought in an exceptionally weak era, where most fights were scheduled for six rounds or less.

He would have been gone before Frazier came along.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2014, 04:29 PM   #11
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,725
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston without Ali

Who though? Terrell?
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2014, 04:32 PM   #12
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,557
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston without Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Who though? Terrell?
Possibly Terrell, but if not him somebody else.

Imagine Liston coming out of his corner sluggishly like the Tokyo Tyson, and the guy in the other corner really wants it and is firing on all cylinders.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2014, 04:43 PM   #13
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,725
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston without Ali

Sonny Liston
Floyd Patterson
Ernie Terrell
Cleveland Williams
George Chuvalo
Zora Folley
Karl Mildenberger
Roger Rischer
Eddie Machen
Doug Jones

Maybe Chuvalo could outlast him somehow.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2014, 05:21 PM   #14
BillB
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 887
vCash: 500
Default Re: Liston without Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
I suspect that he would have lost the title before much longer.

Once a champion stops taking their training seriously, they are only heading in one direction.
I'm not sure that was a true picture of Liston.

Liston did not train for the 1st Clay fight. He did not take Clay seriously. His handlers had told him he had nothing to worry about. He did have a bad shoulder. He thought he would take Clay out in 2 without any problem.

He didn't train for the 2nd fight because he had decided to take a dive...IMO.

As far as drinking, there are mixed reports of that. Liston's best friend in Vegas, Lem Banker, swears he never saw Liston drunk. They were together frequently. Banker said this after Liston was dead. I can't see why he would lie about it.
BillB is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2014, 05:23 PM   #15
choklab
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: bad to the bone and sexy
Posts: 5,764
vCash: 500
Default Re: Liston without Ali

Without Ali Doug Jones might have been the new kid on the block.

Would have been intresting to see Liston defend the title against Doug Jones, ingo Johansson, an Eddie Machen rematch and Ernie Terrell. Each might pose intresting stylistic challenges. If Sonny got past them He would then be lined up for the next generation Frazier, Bonnavena and Quarry. Defending once or twice a year I think 1967 was as far as he could have went as champion because Liston was a late 1950s, early 60s fighter who was peaking in 1960.
choklab is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013