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Old 02-14-2008, 11:31 AM   #1
fg2227
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Default How do you rate Sonny liston?

Thinking about head to head, Who would he beat and who would defeat him?
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:19 PM   #2
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Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

(in random order)

Joe Louis - Probably a slugfest a la the Williams fights. However, Louis does pretty much everything better than Williams. Louis favorite.

Muhammad Ali - Ali a 2:1 favorite.

Joe Frazier - Liston favorite. Frazier usually took some punishment early, which might be fatal against Sonny. If he makes it through the early rounds, he stands a good chance of winning though.

Larry Holmes - Holmes UD. I think Holmes', heart and durability pull him through the tough moments while his speed and timing makes sure he bags enough rounds for a ~ 9-6 points win.

Jack Dempsey - Liston favorite.

George Foreman - 50/50 fight. I think Foreman is a bit heavier-handed and he's a bit bigger, but Liston is more accurate and correct a boxer. Based on that i'd favor Liston, but considering Foreman's heart is top notch and Liston's a bit below that, i'd make it 50/50.

Rocky Marciano - 50/50. Liston is a dangerous fighter for an aggressive guy like Marciano, but Marciano did more than just come forward, had a great chin and undoubtable heart - to make it an even bet in my book.

Mike Tyson - Tyson slight favorite. I think Tyson punches harder (more one-punch KO's and over more noteworthy opposition as well) and his much faster hands will make the difference here. Tyson is also very proven against big guys while Liston only has Williams.

Jersey Joe Walcott - Liston slight favorite. Slight? I'm very impressed by Walcott's stuff, he is much better than his record indicates. He is tricky, has crafty footwork and quite a big punch but lack of aggression.

Ezzard Charles - Liston favorite. Charles was an excellent boxer who could do it all, especially blocking and counter punching, but i think Liston would find his way to a UD.

Lennox Lewis - Lewis favorite. I think he can do anything that Liston can better, he has faster hands, faster feet and has proven himself much deeper against larger opposition.


Most people think better of Liston than me though.
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:24 PM   #3
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Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

The only guy i'd make a clear favourite would be Ali.
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:28 PM   #4
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Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

I have Liston #7 all-time overall. Head-to-head he'd be Top 5.
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:32 PM   #5
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Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmes' Jab
I have Liston #7 all-time overall. Head-to-head he'd be Top 5.
All time heavyweight or all time period?
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:39 PM   #6
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Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

Ali is the only one I'd favour to beat him every time. Outside of that Holmes, Lewis and Louis have the best chances: all would split a series with Liston I feel.

Holyfield is a close call, Tyson too (although I'd edge towards Sonny beating him), he'd beat Bowe. As for Marciano, Frazier and Dempsey- well all three would get iced by Liston, early (poor clash of size and styles).

Johnson and Tunney would prove stylistic toughies, but far more often than otherwise Liston's power and finishing ability would bail him out.
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:39 PM   #7
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Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

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Originally Posted by SteveO
All time heavyweight or all time period?

All time at Heavyweight.
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:34 PM   #8
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Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

I have Liston losing only to Ali, although I can't help but wonder even there because I don't believe that Liston was anywhere near what he was in 1959 when he fought Clay in 1964. Add to that, his refusal to take the fight with "the loud-mouthed kid" seriously and you have a man 5 years past his prime who didn't train much at all . Mind you, I am squarely in the camp that Liston threw the rematch, so I discount that altogether. I believe that a serious 1959 Liston ruins Cassius Clay and may have even had enough to beat the 1967 Ali. However, I have to give the edge to Ali, who by that time was truly something special. I am not sure if anyone else on the list can beat that version of Liston. Whether it is freakish strength, power, or his vastly underrated skill, I cannot see even Louis, who could be hurt by light heavies like Billy Conn, beating him.

Liston destroys Tyson and Frazier. He beats Foreman pretty handily too because of the skill differential and the plain fact that Foreman will not ram through him -no way, no how. Foreman's head will be bouncing off his butt when Liston steps in with that jab. Lewis gives him problems but I like his skill there too. Holyfield would give him war but I think that he would end that early because Holyfield usually didn't know when to back off.

Bowe, believe it or not, would be the only other one who would have a real chance at beating Liston -but only the 1992 version who won the championship from Evander and only if he did not war with him like he did with Evander. If Bowe warred with Liston, he folds like a chair. Keep in mind that Liston's reach was the same as Lennox Lewis -84 inches.

And I hold that he was physically more powerful than any of them, more skilled than most of them, and hit harder than just about all of them. You got to rank him low as a champion in terms of accomplishments but when it comes to head-to-head. He's the sleeper. I think he was close to a complete fighter among the big boys.
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:37 PM   #9
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Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

He beats: Louis, Marciano, Foreman, Dempsey, Frazier

He loses to: Ali, Holmes(close call), Tyson

50/50: Lewis, Holyfield
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:44 PM   #10
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Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
If Bowe warred with Liston, he folds like a chair.
Given Bowe's mindset in pretty much all his fights, you can be pretty sure he'd war with Liston. What did you mean by Bowe folding though, getting knocked out, quitting or something else?
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:47 PM   #11
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Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Given Bowe's mindset in pretty much all his fights, you can be pretty sure he'd war with Liston. What did you mean by Bowe folding though, getting knocked out, quitting or something else?
I think he'd be stopped.
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:49 PM   #12
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Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
He loses to: Tyson
Interesting. How exactly do you see this fight unfolding from a 'stylistic' viewpoint? How does Tyson go about beating him?

I make it a close call, but edge towards Liston. His jab would be a potent weapon, he is even in terms of skill, was extremely durable at his best and won't be intimidated in the least. If it becomes an inside game Liston has the edge in 'workrate' plus he can more than hold his own boxing from distance. Tyson is at his most effective working at mid-range I think Liston has the savvy and tools to minimise this 'window' as much as possible.

Still a tough fight of course, but that's my reasoning why I favour Liston.
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:52 PM   #13
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Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89
I have Liston losing only to Ali, although I can't help but wonder even there because I don't believe that Liston was anywhere near what he was in 1959 when he fought Clay in 1964. Add to that, his refusal to take the fight with "the loud-mouthed kid" seriously and you have a man 5 years past his prime who didn't train much at all . Mind you, I am squarely in the camp that Liston threw the rematch, so I discount that altogether. I believe that a serious 1959 Liston ruins Cassius Clay and may have even had enough to beat the 1967 Ali. However, I have to give the edge to Ali, who by that time was truly something special. I am not sure if anyone else on the list can beat that version of Liston. Whether it is freakish strength, power, or his vastly underrated skill, I cannot see even Louis, who could be hurt by light heavies like Billy Conn, beating him.

Liston destroys Tyson and Frazier. He beats Foreman pretty handily too because of the skill differential and the plain fact that Foreman will not ram through him -no way, no how. Foreman's head will be bouncing off his butt when Liston steps in with that jab. Lewis gives him problems but I like his skill there too. Holyfield would give him war but I think that he would end that early because Holyfield usually didn't know when to back off.

Bowe, believe it or not, would be the only other one who would have a real chance at beating Liston -but only the 1992 version who won the championship from Evander and only if he did not war with him like he did with Evander. If Bowe warred with Liston, he folds like a chair. Keep in mind that Liston's reach was the same as Lennox Lewis -84 inches.

And I hold that he was physically more powerful than any of them, more skilled than most of them, and hit harder than just about all of them. You got to rank him low as a champion in terms of accomplishments but when it comes to head-to-head. He's the sleeper. I think he was close to a complete fighter among the big boys.

How do you see Johnson, Holmes and Tunney faring against him?
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:58 PM   #14
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Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fg2227
Thinking about head to head, Who would he beat and who would defeat him?
He would be an unknown factor for a lot of posters here against their favourite-

That is if the fight was actualy going to take place and they had to make a genuine prediction.
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Old 02-14-2008, 07:00 PM   #15
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Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmes' Jab
Interesting. How exactly do you see this fight unfolding from a 'stylistic' viewpoint? How does Tyson go about beating him?

I make it a close call, but edge towards Liston. His jab would be a potent weapon, he is even in terms of skill, was extremely durable at his best and won't be intimidated in the least. If it becomes an inside game Liston has the edge in 'workrate' plus he can more than hold his own boxing from distance. Tyson is at his most effective working at mid-range I think Liston has the savvy and tools to minimise this 'window' as much as possible.

Still a tough fight of course, but that's my reasoning why I favour Liston.
I used to favor Liston as well, here's my reasoning for changing to Tyson: Usually people tend to recommend a strong/sharp jab to keep off Tyson. if you've watched enough prime Tyson, the jab was perhaps the least efective punch against him. When he lost Rooney and became more of a brawler, a strong, stiff jab became a good weapon to use, as was shown by Douglas.

However, in his prime, even against the sharp, quick jabs from outboxers and movers like Biggs, he was able to bob and weave them at will. Now, Liston had a more powerful, thudding jab than any Biggs or Tucker, but he didn't have the speed or snap on his jab that someone like Biggs did. I think Liston would be able to catch Mike at times with glancing follow up rights, but I don't think his jab would be that effective a weapon against prime Mike.

As to the rest of the bout, Tyson is quicker and more explosive, while being just as powerful, and able to neutralize Liston's best weapon I believe. I don't see any other edges Liston has. I think Tyson is a better body puncher, and his overall edge in explosiveness gives him the edge here, seeing as I don't think Liston would be able to keep him off. Could Liston hurt him? Yes. Could mike hurt Liston? Yes, but as far as styles go, I don't see Liston holding any edges other than a jab, a punch which would be neutralized by Tyson's bob and weave defensive skills.

That's my take anyway.
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