How do you rate Sonny liston?

[Stonehands89]

Originally Posted by Holmes' Jab

How do you see Johnson, Holmes and Tunney faring against him?

Johnson is a tough call for any modern HW... he would need to change his style or drop many decisions. His style functioned well then... but I'd have to speculate too much about how he'd adapt to modern boxing.

Holmes would have the best chance besides Ali and I do think that his hand speed would be a factor -he'd probably outjab Liston. However, Holmes had a tendency to loop alot of his shots and could get shook up by lesser fighters, like Norton. Liston was more compact and efficient.

Tunney. Too small. But his skill and superior strategy would otherwise make it interesting.

It's hard to gauge Liston. He looked great against the likes of Williams, Machen and Patterson, but he punked out against Clay twice, possibly in fixed fights. It's hard to judge what he was truly capable of against all-time great opposition when he had so few fights against top fighters and did those bizarre quit jobs against the best young fighter he faced.
I guess it's hard to gauge others too, whose opposition was kind of lacking, but Liston is the most enigmatic and difficult to get a handle on, IMO.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

(in random order)

Joe Louis - Probably a slugfest a la the Williams fights. However, Louis does pretty much everything better than Williams. Louis favorite.

Muhammad Ali - Ali a 2:1 favorite.

Joe Frazier - Liston favorite. Frazier usually took some punishment early, which might be fatal against Sonny. If he makes it through the early rounds, he stands a good chance of winning though.

Larry Holmes - Holmes UD. I think Holmes', heart and durability pull him through the tough moments while his speed and timing makes sure he bags enough rounds for a ~ 9-6 points win.

Jack Dempsey - Liston favorite.

George Foreman - 50/50 fight. I think Foreman is a bit heavier-handed and he's a bit bigger, but Liston is more accurate and correct a boxer. Based on that i'd favor Liston, but considering Foreman's heart is top notch and Liston's a bit below that, i'd make it 50/50.

Rocky Marciano - 50/50. Liston is a dangerous fighter for an aggressive guy like Marciano, but Marciano did more than just come forward, had a great chin and undoubtable heart - to make it an even bet in my book.

Mike Tyson - Tyson slight favorite. I think Tyson punches harder (more one-punch KO's and over more noteworthy opposition as well) and his much faster hands will make the difference here. Tyson is also very proven against big guys while Liston only has Williams.

Jersey Joe Walcott - Liston slight favorite. Slight? I'm very impressed by Walcott's stuff, he is much better than his record indicates. He is tricky, has crafty footwork and quite a big punch but lack of aggression.

Ezzard Charles - Liston favorite. Charles was an excellent boxer who could do it all, especially blocking and counter punching, but i think Liston would find his way to a UD.

Lennox Lewis - Lewis favorite. I think he can do anything that Liston can better, he has faster hands, faster feet and has proven himself much deeper against larger opposition.


Most people think better of Liston than me though.

Very beleivable outcomes ,I dont agree with them all but they are very feasible ,Sonny,for me is hard to rate before he won the title he stormed through the division,but his defeats were so ignominious,its hard to get a handle on him.I think Liston was past his best when he fought Ali,plus his overconfidence and the two blow outs of Floyd meant that he was very ring rusty,never a very good trainer, his condition was questionable after he became champ,imo.The guy who nearly decapitated Williams would be a toughie for any champ.

[janitor]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Stonehands89

Johnson is a tough call for any modern HW... he would need to change his style or drop many decisions. His style functioned well then... but I'd have to speculate too much about how he'd adapt to modern boxing.

Incidentaly Johnson did somtimes change his style for political reasons.

When he won the coloured heavyweight title from Denver Ed Martin in a chess match the press criticised his style as boring.

In the rematch he was almost like Joe Louis performing a measured demolition in two rounds.

I think that if he knew the modern rule set he would have surprisingly little trouble adapting.

Tunney. Too small. But his skill and superior strategy would otherwise make it interesting.

Of course I have to pick Liston here, but the Machen fight tells me that this is not a foregon conclusion.

[joe33]

A great great fighter,who i personaly cant forgive for his dive in the ali fight,sadly the mafia conections ruin him for me totaly.And dont all jump on me here,its just my opinion,id say if he had not had those conections,he would have beat ali at least once.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by Sonny's jab

It's hard to gauge Liston. He looked great against the likes of Williams, Machen and Patterson, but he punked out against Clay twice, possibly in fixed fights. It's hard to judge what he was truly capable of against all-time great opposition when he had so few fights against top fighters and did those bizarre quit jobs against the best young fighter he faced.
I guess it's hard to gauge others too, whose opposition was kind of lacking, but Liston is the most enigmatic and difficult to get a handle on, IMO.

Well, you took your screen name after his jab, so there must be something to be said for him. Perhaps I'll retire the screen name Magoo and create a different account like Sonny's stare, or Sonny's actual birthdate. Maybe I'll even go as far as to create the name Sonny's great big swinging dick, but that would be a bit bold.

[SteveO]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Well, you took your screen name after his jab, so there must be something to be said for him. Perhaps I'll retire the screen name Magoo and create a different account like Sonny's stare, or Sonny's actual birthdate. Maybe I'll even go as far as to create the name Sonny's great big swinging dick, but that would be a bit bold.

Stay Magoo.

And keep the assatars.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by SteveO

Stay Magoo.

And keep the assatars.

LOL

Its almost that time again where I should post something that is near ban material.

[SteveO]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

LOL

Its almost that time again where I should post something that is near ban material.

I liked the medical one you had last time.

Very informative.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

(in random order)

Joe Louis - Probably a slugfest a la the Williams fights. However, Louis does pretty much everything better than Williams. Louis favorite.

Muhammad Ali - Ali a 2:1 favorite.

Joe Frazier - Liston favorite. Frazier usually took some punishment early, which might be fatal against Sonny. If he makes it through the early rounds, he stands a good chance of winning though.

Larry Holmes - Holmes UD. I think Holmes', heart and durability pull him through the tough moments while his speed and timing makes sure he bags enough rounds for a ~ 9-6 points win.

Jack Dempsey - Liston favorite.

George Foreman - 50/50 fight. I think Foreman is a bit heavier-handed and he's a bit bigger, but Liston is more accurate and correct a boxer. Based on that i'd favor Liston, but considering Foreman's heart is top notch and Liston's a bit below that, i'd make it 50/50.

Rocky Marciano - 50/50. Liston is a dangerous fighter for an aggressive guy like Marciano, but Marciano did more than just come forward, had a great chin and undoubtable heart - to make it an even bet in my book.

Mike Tyson - Tyson slight favorite. I think Tyson punches harder (more one-punch KO's and over more noteworthy opposition as well) and his much faster hands will make the difference here. Tyson is also very proven against big guys while Liston only has Williams.

Jersey Joe Walcott - Liston slight favorite. Slight? I'm very impressed by Walcott's stuff, he is much better than his record indicates. He is tricky, has crafty footwork and quite a big punch but lack of aggression.

Ezzard Charles - Liston favorite. Charles was an excellent boxer who could do it all, especially blocking and counter punching, but i think Liston would find his way to a UD.

Lennox Lewis - Lewis favorite. I think he can do anything that Liston can better, he has faster hands, faster feet and has proven himself much deeper against larger opposition.


Most people think better of Liston than me though.

I think you got it about right. I'm sure there are some Liston jock-sniffers about to come out of the woodwork.

[littleguy]

I have him beating Patterson, but losing to Clay

[SteveO]

Originally Posted by littleguy

I have him beating Patterson, but losing to Clay

Interesting conclusion.

I'll double it.

I have him beating Patterson twice and losing to Clay....twice.

[Robbi]

Originally Posted by Stonehands89

Holyfield would give him war but I think that he would end that early because Holyfield usually didn't know when to back off.

Liston would stop Holyfield early. That sure is a brave call indeed. A prime Holyfield was never knocked out, and even when past his prime his jaw was reliable. He stood up to Foreman's bombs, without flinching, and was also out-weighed by around 40lbs. And Tyson done no more than put a slight dent in Holyfield's armour over two fights.

If you think Holyfield would meet Liston head on, centre ring, from the opening bell and trade bombs, think again. Holyfield was inclined to get involved, but he could be cute in there and feel his way into a fight. It's arguable exactly how Holyfield would approach a fight with Liston. His sensible head was at times on his shoulders, at other times it wasn't. But that don't matter a jot, going on the evidence of his previous encounters and how durable he was with very hard hitting heavyweights, Tyson and Foreman, it's highly unlikely Liston gets the job done early.

[Sweet Pea]

Originally Posted by SteveO

Interesting conclusion.

I'll double it.

I have him beating Patterson twice and losing to Clay....twice.

[brownpimp88]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

He beats: Louis, Marciano, Foreman, Dempsey, Frazier

He loses to: Ali, Holmes(close call), Tyson

50/50: Lewis, Holyfield

what about riddick bowe and jack johnson?