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Old 04-01-2013, 09:50 AM   #46
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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Originally Posted by MAJR View Post
What? You disagree that Eubank was a tough SOB even in his old age? That taking a fight at 8th days notice at a weight he wasn't training to fight at anymore but still giving the younger and very talented Calzaghe a very difficult fight is not an example of how tough an opponent he could still be at that time? That going life and death a hard-punching world champion from two weight divisions higher in two fights and only losing by a close decision in the first and injury in the second is not proof that he still had some left in the tank?

I didn't say 1998-Eubank was a better win for Calzaghe than 2011-Froch was for Ward, and I have never said it. Froch was closer to his prime against Ward than Eubank was against Calzaghe, Froch was in much better form heading into his fight with Ward than Eubank was against Calzaghe. Thus, in terms of where they were in their respective careers at the time 2011-Froch is a scalp that rates better than 1998-Eubank.

And I did not say 1998-Eubank would beat 2011-Froch, I said 1998-Eubank would make it a bloody difficult fight for 2011-Froch, just as 1998-Eubank made his fight with Calzaghe and two fights with Thompson bloody difficult.

I'm not trying to make 1998-Eubank out to be an elite fighter but only a fool or someone with an agenda would try to claim that he wasn't still one tough SOB who could give world-level fighters close and difficult fights.
1997/8 Eubank wasn't a better opponent than the Froch Ward fought.
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:58 AM   #47
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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1997/8 Eubank wasn't a better opponent than the Froch Ward fought.
And I didn't say he was. Either your not reading my post properly or your trolling.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:00 AM   #48
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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And I didn't say he was. Either your not reading my post properly or your trolling.
Great.

Like I was saying, Calzaghe's resume pre-Hopkins is comparable to Ward's current dossier.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:01 AM   #49
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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And I didn't say he was. Either your not reading my post properly or your trolling.
What had Kessler done before his loss to Joe. Kessler is Joe's best win.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:10 AM   #50
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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What had Kessler done before his loss to Joe. Kessler is Joe's best win.
He'd fought almost 40 fights unbeaten. Beaten four Super Middleweight World Champions in the last five of his fights before meeting Calzaghe with the other win coming over a world contender level fighter in Andrade, unified the WBA and WBC Titles by beating Beyer. He was an established World Level fighter on the best run of result he's ever had in his career with many arguing that he was to be the next dominant Super Middleweight and was going to take Calzaghe's crown.

Regardless of that, I fail to what's got to do with the post you quoted, as I was not talking about Kessler at all.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:12 AM   #51
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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Great.

Like I was saying, Calzaghe's resume pre-Hopkins is comparable to Ward's current dossier.
Which...is a point I made earlier in this thread when I said:

"When his [Ward] resume is no stronger than Calzaghe's and many people argue that Calzaghe isn't an all time great then Ward cant be either."
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:14 AM   #52
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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He'd fought almost 40 fights unbeaten. Beaten four Super Middleweight World Champions in the last five of his fights before meeting Calzaghe with the other win coming over a world contender level fighter in Andrade, unified the WBA and WBC Titles by beating Beyer. He was an established World Level fighter on the best run of result he's ever had in his career with many arguing that he was to be the next dominant Super Middleweight and was going to take Calzaghe's crown.

Regardless of that, I fail to what's got to do with the post you quoted, as I was not talking about Kessler at all.
Beyer was faded by the time Kessler fought him (not that he was ever really that good). And prior to facing Kessler Andrade had done absolutely squat.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:15 AM   #53
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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Which...is a point I made earlier in this thread when I said:

"When his [Ward] resume is no stronger than Calzaghe's and many people argue that Calzaghe isn't an all time great then Ward cant be either."
I don't think Ward's an ATG. Just found it interesting he's already in line to blow right by Calzaghe's SMW resume before he hits 30.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:16 AM   #54
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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Originally Posted by MAJR View Post
He'd fought almost 40 fights unbeaten. Beaten four Super Middleweight World Champions in the last five of his fights before meeting Calzaghe with the other win coming over a world contender level fighter in Andrade, unified the WBA and WBC Titles by beating Beyer. He was an established World Level fighter on the best run of result he's ever had in his career with many arguing that he was to be the next dominant Super Middleweight and was going to take Calzaghe's crown.

Regardless of that, I fail to what's got to do with the post you quoted, as I was not talking about Kessler at all.
He won the bets from Beyer and Manny Siaca....What does that say about the division when those two nobody's were world champs of the division...
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:29 AM   #55
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

MAJR always gives a fair and genuine opinion, don't waste your time arguing with wind up merchants mate
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:40 AM   #56
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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Originally Posted by LikeFatherNSon View Post
To answer your opening question, yes. Byron Mitchell? You got jokes on a Monday morning.
So Mitchell, beat long running SMW champ Liles which is a better win than any Froch has, beat Siaca twice who became a SMW champ and Green who went on to beat Joppy, drew with 2 weight world champ Girard and only lost by debateable SD to Ottke and had never been beaten clearly at SMW except by Calzaghe. Froch going into the ward fight had never beaten a SMW champ
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Originally Posted by LikeFatherNSon View Post
1997/8 Eubank wasn't a better opponent than the Froch Ward fought.
So you think Froch at 35 coming of a Mdec to an old boiled down SMW journeyman was better than Eubank at 31 who had in over 40 fights (many world title fights) only lost to one fighter by debateable decision and by SD, holding wins over fighters like Benn, Rochhigiani etc, whilst Froch had a SD over Dirrell which many think he lost, was being outboxed by Taylor and a Mdec to old Johnson. Got it
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Originally Posted by dinovelvet View Post
What had Kessler done before his loss to Joe. Kessler is Joe's best win.
Been a winner of 39 fights, winner of 5 world title fights, unified SMW titles and beaten 4 fighters who either were or had been SMW champs as well as unbeaten Andrade.

Now same question What had Kessler done after his loss to Calzaghe before his loss to Ward?
Answer
Only had 3 fights in 2 years, not been in the ring with a world class opponent for 3 years, only won a vacant title, not beat anyone of real note unless you rate Sartison, suffered double vision

Quote:
Originally Posted by LikeFatherNSon View Post
I don't think Ward's an ATG. Just found it interesting he's already in line to blow right by Calzaghe's SMW resume before he hits 30.
How is it?

Calzaghes is far greater


Still nobody can counter this
Can any Ward fans answer the question below?

Calzaghe beat 3 undefeated fighters who had or went on to claim a SMW title.
Questions to the Ward fans and please dont duck the questions below

1. Someone tell me which top undefeated fighters Ward has beaten?
2. Tell me which top undefeated world champs Ward has fought?


Lets read the answers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Try and debate against this

Andre Ward............VS.............Joe Calzaghe
Froch.....................................Kessler (Kessler the better win) (Kessler beat Froch)
Kessler...................................Eubank (Eubank the better win)
Dawson..................................Lacy (Lacy a proven SMW and winner of 5 SMW title fights. Dawson no pedigree at all at SMW) (Lacy the better win)
Abraham.................................Mitchell (Mitchell a 2 time SMW champ who had never been clearly beaten, only lost by debateable SD in Germany to Ottke, had KOd long time SMW champ Liles, beaten a future SMW champ twice, compared to AA who had done nothing at SMW) (Mitchell better win)
Bika.......................................Brewer (Bikas best win became Manfredo, Brewer had beaten H Graham and was a SMW champ) (Brewer the better win) (Bika was a Calzaghe left over at that time and had been out of the ring bar less than a round for a while)
Green.....................................Woodhall (Woodhall a SMW champ, who had beaten a reigning SMW champ, a world rated former champ, a future SMW champ and Branco a world rated SMW who became WBA LHW champ, who at SMW beat R Reid and G Johnson who when old and shot KOd Green) (Woodhall a better win)
Miranda...................................Bika (Bika now a top 5 SMW had drawn with 3 time SMW champ Beyer) (Bika a better win)
Buchanan (?????)......................Sheika (Sheika a better win) (Sheika was coming off a win over G Johnson and was a top 10 SMW at the time)
Camou (?????)..........................Veit (Veit a SMW title holder who had a fair resume, better than at least 2 of the current top 5 SMWs) (Veit a better win)Then include the Reid win and then the other top 10 SMWs and its clear Calzaghe is well ahead. I could have put Mkertchyan ahead of Green, Camou, Miranda, Buchanon

Very clear but nobody will have a sensible answer to say otherwise, it will just be a lame Faileys losing it answer when they cant debate against

Somebody tell me how Ward has done more than that.


Do answer the questions this time

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinovelvet View Post
He won the bets from Beyer and Manny Siaca....What does that say about the division when those two nobody's were world champs of the division...
Beyer was a 3 time WBC SMW world champ and Siaca had beaten Mundine who went on to beat Green and Geale.
Same question said again here though
Well before fighting Ward, Kessler won a vacant title from Sartison and defended against Haussler and Perdermo, so what does that say about the division those few years later
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:44 AM   #57
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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Originally Posted by bailey View Post
So Mitchell, beat long running SMW champ Liles which is a better win than any Froch has, beat Siaca twice who became a SMW champ and Green who went on to beat Joppy, drew with 2 weight world champ Girard and only lost by debateable SD to Ottke and had never been beaten clearly at SMW except by Calzaghe. Froch going into the ward fight had never beaten a SMW champ

So you think Froch at 35 coming of a Mdec to an old boiled down SMW journeyman was better than Eubank at 31 who had in over 40 fights (many world title fights) only lost to one fighter by debateable decision and by SD, holding wins over fighters like Benn, Rochhigiani etc, whilst Froch had a SD over Dirrell which many think he lost, was being outboxed by Taylor and a Mdec to old Johnson. Got it
Been a winner of 39 fights, winner of 5 world title fights, unified SMW titles and beaten 4 fighters who either were or had been SMW champs as well as unbeaten Andrade.

Now same question What had Kessler done after his loss to Calzaghe before his loss to Ward?
Answer
Only had 3 fights in 2 years, not been in the ring with a world class opponent for 3 years, only won a vacant title, not beat anyone of real note unless you rate Sartison, suffered double vision

How is it?

Calzaghes is far greater


Still nobody can counter this
Can any Ward fans answer the question below?

Calzaghe beat 3 undefeated fighters who had or went on to claim a SMW title.
Questions to the Ward fans and please dont duck the questions below

1. Someone tell me which top undefeated fighters Ward has beaten?
2. Tell me which top undefeated world champs Ward has fought?


Lets read the answers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Try and debate against this

Andre Ward............VS.............Joe Calzaghe
Froch.....................................Kessler (Kessler the better win) (Kessler beat Froch)
Kessler...................................Eubank (Eubank the better win)
Dawson..................................Lacy (Lacy a proven SMW and winner of 5 SMW title fights. Dawson no pedigree at all at SMW) (Lacy the better win)
Abraham.................................Mitchell (Mitchell a 2 time SMW champ who had never been clearly beaten, only lost by debateable SD in Germany to Ottke, had KOd long time SMW champ Liles, beaten a future SMW champ twice, compared to AA who had done nothing at SMW) (Mitchell better win)
Bika.......................................Brewer (Bikas best win became Manfredo, Brewer had beaten H Graham and was a SMW champ) (Brewer the better win) (Bika was a Calzaghe left over at that time and had been out of the ring bar less than a round for a while)
Green.....................................Woodhall (Woodhall a SMW champ, who had beaten a reigning SMW champ, a world rated former champ, a future SMW champ and Branco a world rated SMW who became WBA LHW champ, who at SMW beat R Reid and G Johnson who when old and shot KOd Green) (Woodhall a better win)
Miranda...................................Bika (Bika now a top 5 SMW had drawn with 3 time SMW champ Beyer) (Bika a better win)
Buchanan (?????)......................Sheika (Sheika a better win) (Sheika was coming off a win over G Johnson and was a top 10 SMW at the time)
Camou (?????)..........................Veit (Veit a SMW title holder who had a fair resume, better than at least 2 of the current top 5 SMWs) (Veit a better win)Then include the Reid win and then the other top 10 SMWs and its clear Calzaghe is well ahead. I could have put Mkertchyan ahead of Green, Camou, Miranda, Buchanon

Very clear but nobody will have a sensible answer to say otherwise, it will just be a lame Faileys losing it answer when they cant debate against

Somebody tell me how Ward has done more than that.


Do answer the questions this time


Beyer was a 3 time WBC SMW world champ and Siaca had beaten Mundine who went on to beat Green and Geale.
Same question said again here though
Well before fighting Ward, Kessler won a vacant title from Sartison and defended against Haussler and Perdermo, so what does that say about the division those few years later
Mitchell was one of the f*cking worst champs in the sport. Obviously you weren't watching boxing back then because you sound like a boxrec warrior. Liles had one foot out of the sport when Mitchell fought him.Mitchell lost to Girard, needed two fights with Siaza to set the record straight (Siaca!) and had already lost to Ottke. Step back and actually WATCH the fighters before running your mouth. Mitchell wasn't in Froch's class. EVER.

I'ma just ignore your crap about Eubank cuz it's obvious you started watching boxing when Calzaghe beat Lacy. Maybe after.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:45 AM   #58
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

Me being a fan , i would say this . Wards is one of the very best boxers in the world today .

NOW....

Is he Hall of fame worthy ? Unfortunately NO

Is he ATG status ? Unfortunately NO .

He needs to accomplish a little bit more before we could start sayin that .
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:47 AM   #59
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If you want to talk about titles making the fighter, Ottke held the much more prestigious IBF belt and was ranked above Joe.
Joe's worthless WBO belt wasn't even considered a legitimate belt back then.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:48 AM   #60
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Default Re: Andre Ward is already an ATG

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If you want to talk about titles making the fighter, Ottke held the much more prestigious IBF belt and was ranked above Joe.
Joe's worthless WBO belt wasn't even considered a legitimate belt back then.
I know, right? Ottke was rated higher than Joe for their respective reigns. And the WBO was like the IBO back then.
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