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Old 04-02-2013, 11:05 PM   #31
ripcity
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Default Re: Is Pernell Whitaker the greatest ring general in boxing history?

He's among the best along with in no real order. Willie Pep, Benny Leonard, Joe Gans and Floyd Mayweather.
I consider boxers such as Ray Leonard, Ray Robinson and Roy Jones to be more "Athletes" than "Ring Generals"
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:19 AM   #32
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Default Re: Is Pernell Whitaker the greatest ring general in boxing history?

athletes.


Christ.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:38 AM   #33
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Default Re: Is Pernell Whitaker the greatest ring general in boxing history?

I have difficulty being definitive, here are my nominations for top of the class.
1. Pep
2. Archie Moore
3. Ali
4. Sugar Ray Leonard
5. Gene Tunney
6. Floyd Mayweather
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:33 AM   #34
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Default Re: Is Pernell Whitaker the greatest ring general in boxing history?

I have issues with people ranking Floyd among the best ring generals ever. It's something I harp on a lot but really, getting cornered by DLH, Cotto, Jesus Chavez, Augustus, Castillo, Ortiz, Hatton. He's not even the best ring general of his era, with Marquez and Hopkins showing superior control of the center. Floyd has no glaring weaknesses, he is a very complete fighter, but if you want to critique him from a technical standpoint, ring generalship is the most obvious point to go to IMO. An Italian Fencer, not a Spanish one.

Whitaker is someone I'd consider very high up there, it was incredible. Though I'm starting to see a trend with fights staying in the center of the ring more often in southpaw/orthodox match-ups in which one leads and the other counters. It seems much easier to turn a fighter on angles when they mirror you than when you're more square in the same stance facing off. So I'd imagine that greatly helped Whitaker use the ring as his playground.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:59 AM   #35
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Default Re: Is Pernell Whitaker the greatest ring general in boxing history?

He hasn't faced a sufficient calibre or variety of stylists.

Just straight on plodder types.
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:20 AM   #36
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Default Re: Is Pernell Whitaker the greatest ring general in boxing history?

McMustache deserves a mention.
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:30 AM   #37
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Default Re: Is Pernell Whitaker the greatest ring general in boxing history?

I can safely say that's been done to death.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:48 PM   #38
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Default Re: Is Pernell Whitaker the greatest ring general in boxing history?

He's up near the top, but there have been so many great ring generals with so many different styles of controlling a fight that I wouldn't want to unquestionably say that anyone is number 1.
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:54 PM   #39
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Default Re: Is Pernell Whitaker the greatest ring general in boxing history?

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Originally Posted by Bogotazo View Post
I have issues with people ranking Floyd among the best ring generals ever. It's something I harp on a lot but really, getting cornered by DLH, Cotto, Jesus Chavez, Augustus, Castillo, Ortiz, Hatton. He's not even the best ring general of his era, with Marquez and Hopkins showing superior control of the center. Floyd has no glaring weaknesses, he is a very complete fighter, but if you want to critique him from a technical standpoint, ring generalship is the most obvious point to go to IMO. An Italian Fencer, not a Spanish one.

Whitaker is someone I'd consider very high up there, it was incredible. Though I'm starting to see a trend with fights staying in the center of the ring more often in southpaw/orthodox match-ups in which one leads and the other counters. It seems much easier to turn a fighter on angles when they mirror you than when you're more square in the same stance facing off. So I'd imagine that greatly helped Whitaker use the ring as his playground.
I would normaly be inclined to agree with you about Mayweather being cornered. However, he dose some of his best work with his back on the ropes. I understand it's counterintuitive, and any good trainer would have him avoid having his back on the ropes, but for whatever reason it works for him.
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:46 PM   #40
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Default Re: Is Pernell Whitaker the greatest ring general in boxing history?

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Originally Posted by red cobra View Post
Monzon, Ali, the aforementioned Benny Leonard...Whitaker has nothing on them.
Nah, Pea's pretty much right there with any of them.

I side with the Monzon camp though.
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:52 PM   #41
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Default Re: Is Pernell Whitaker the greatest ring general in boxing history?

Whitaker gets major points from me because he did it against MUCH larger men. Even dictated against a young, albeit possibly green Oscar, post-prime, which is huge.

You could hardly ever drag him into a slugfest and he was constantly working and out thinking his opponent. Even in slugfest, he rarely fared the worse for the wear.

That said I think Roy Jones Jr, Willie Pep, and Whitaker are all frontrunners for the #1 spot, and I do lean a tad towards Whitaker
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:55 PM   #42
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Default Re: Is Pernell Whitaker the greatest ring general in boxing history?

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Originally Posted by ripcity View Post
I would normaly be inclined to agree with you about Mayweather being cornered. However, he dose some of his best work with his back on the ropes. I understand it's counterintuitive, and any good trainer would have him avoid having his back on the ropes, but for whatever reason it works for him.
Because he usually dominates regardless. Floyd getting cornered/up against the ropes are often some of the most interesting moments of his fights.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:21 PM   #43
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Default Re: Is Pernell Whitaker the greatest ring general in boxing history?

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Originally Posted by ripcity View Post
I would normaly be inclined to agree with you about Mayweather being cornered. However, he dose some of his best work with his back on the ropes. I understand it's counterintuitive, and any good trainer would have him avoid having his back on the ropes, but for whatever reason it works for him.
His guard is simply amazing. By itself his guard is one of the best ever. He does great work against the ropes, but on the outside chance he drops a round, it's also often backing up against the ropes. So on ring generalship alone, Floyd is far above most fighters, but among the very best is a stretch IMO.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:27 PM   #44
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Default Re: Is Pernell Whitaker the greatest ring general in boxing history?

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Originally Posted by Bogotazo View Post
His guard is simply amazing. By itself his guard is one of the best ever. He does great work against the ropes, but on the outside chance he drops a round, it's also often backing up against the ropes. So on ring generalship alone, Floyd is far above most fighters, but among the very best is a stretch IMO.
I'd pay a large sum to see how he'd do when cornered or fighting off the ropes against a level of operator such as Duran (135-147) or Chavez (130-140). I think it'd spell certain disaster and he'd probably be best inclined not to take it there. This is always one of your biggest points on those matchups, but like rip alluded to (in a surprising solid post), sometimes it really feels Floyd allows it to happen by design. He's been very effectively pressured, but he never seems to lose his poise there, he evades, guards or blocks a majority of the shots thrown at him and his infighting ability, accuracy and punch variety shines.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:41 PM   #45
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Default Re: Is Pernell Whitaker the greatest ring general in boxing history?

I think Floyd's comfortable wherever the fight goes, and his inside game has really come to the forefront in recent years, so getting pushed up against the ropes isn't really going to get to him much. Still, as we saw against Castillo and Cotto - probably the two best pure pressure fighters he's faced - he can be forced there when it suits him more to keep things in the middle of the ring. He doesn't have complete, total control of space against high level guys (or borderline high level, in Floyd's case) quite like Whitaker or several others. I really rate Mayweather as a ring general, but I don't think he's in the running for very best ever.
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