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Old 04-28-2013, 12:54 AM   #1
PetethePrince
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Default Reflections on Martinez & Judah-Garcia

Martinez's legs looked a little heavy. While I think Martinez is past his prime at 38 years of age, I think it was more of a case of taking Murray more lightly than being old & faded overnight.

It makes sense that Martinez hurt his left hand because his left hand was never really forcing Murray to respect him. This put Martinez in a more vulnerable situation considering Martinez was never untouchable, and as a bait & counter type fighter Martinez opens himself up & drops his hands to make his opponents pay. Martinez wasn't able to make Murray pay as much, perhaps because of that hand. He also looked very tired from as early as the middle rounds.

Regardless Martinez fought poorly. He circled left right into Murray's best asset which was his straight right hand and couldn't make Murray miss whenever he threw it. He was getting hit with the jab quite a bit too. When he was dropped, he got caught pulling straight back. When Martinez circled away from Murray's right hand, Murray looked a little more out of his comfort, throwing wider hooks, and Martinez became less predictable and less hittable. It also became clear in the last round, unfortunately for Martinez, as there were only glimpses of it showing early that Murray didn't like fighting on the backfoot. Murray became uncomfortable when Martinez pushed him back in the last round and caught Murray with a left hand. There was a moment just like that earlier in another round.

I'm surprised Murray said he thought he didn't do enough and lost fair and square. Humble and classy guy, maybe too classy. I generously gave Martinez six rounds. The first two were very clear, the third less so but still felt like Martinez had edged it. I gave him the seventh, which might have been undeserved. The 11th and 12th I felt Martinez closed the show. That should be a Murray win based on the knockdown. 115-112 seems odd of a score, maybe Murray was taken a point off because of the headbutt? I don't know. Murray definitely won his rounds more clearly, and with more authority, as displayed by the punch-stats.

I won't completely write off Martinez from now on. But with multiple injuries, surgeries, and age knocking on the door. Time seems to be rearing its head to the end of the tunnel for Martinez's career.

Garcia improved and proved to me he's more than just a hooker. But Judah had me getting out of my seat. He's got heart, at least he showed he had an immense heart in this fight. I was screaming for Zab to lay it all on the line in the 11th when he was catching Danny and possibly hurting him. He impressed me, and gave it his all. I applaud Zab for his toughness and spirit.

Back to Garcia, he's got an improved right hand, and varies it well as Paulie pointed out. He varies his offense well; going to both the body and head. Danny Garcia is essentially a jack of all traits but master of none. He's good at everything, but great at nothing. He may have great power, however. It's game-changing, but maybe not quite on the Lucas level. He's got a very good chin, and he's a monstrous JR WW. Made Judah looked tiny in comparison. Sometimes he loses discipline and can be a bit open & wild. But he's an offensive-minded stalker so he's never going to show perfect defense, but his defense definitely improved. He was blocking Zab's jab down quite effectively, and his reflexes seemed sharp. I think he needs to work on his jab. I don't buy that Zab took it away. He was hardly throwing it in the 1st two rounds as Al Bernstein illustrated how Garcia was controlling the action without a jab, which is odd, yet also impressive.

I think Garcia is a little less comfortable on the retreat. The later rounds showed this, as did Morales when pushing him back fairly good in their 1st fight, and while Danny is tough, composed, and a competent counter-puncher, he's not quite as effective when on the retreat.

I scored the fight the same as Tom Shriek: 115-112 Garcia.

He's definitely more than just the hooker I thought he was, most definitely. An improved, but unfinished product.

I would probably favor Lucas over Garcia because Lucas would force Garcia on his back-foot. However, I give him a much better chance than I would have before this fight. I still need to watch Peterson-Holt but think Garcia probably has a better chance in that bout. I may favor him in that matchup.
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Old 04-28-2013, 01:13 AM   #2
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Default Re: Reflections on Martinez & Judah-Garcia

Garcia has never had a good jab. He's very stiff and awkward. Respect to him for being like u said a jack of all trades and an intelligent fighter but if he keeps fighting more skilled fighters them himself its just a matter of time before one of them put an L on his record. No shame in that though. I think he can beat Peterson or Mathysse but neither of those fights are clear. I wouldn't bet on him against the top guys at 147 though. Would love to see him vs Alvarado or Rios but that'll never happen.
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Old 04-28-2013, 01:18 AM   #3
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Default Re: Reflections on Martinez & Judah-Garcia

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Garcia has never had a good jab. He's very stiff and awkward. Respect to him for being like u said a jack of all trades and an intelligent fighter but if he keeps fighting more skilled fighters them himself its just a matter of time before one of them put an L on his record. No shame in that though. I think he can beat Peterson or Mathysse but neither of those fights are clear. I wouldn't bet on him against the top guys at 147 though. Would love to see him vs Alvarado or Rios but that'll never happen.
Agreed, he needs to improve his jab. He'd definitely beat Alvarado. Alvarado-Rios are fun exciting fights, but let's not get perspective distorted in regards to their status. Peterson & Mathysse are the next best guys in the division and they're facing each other. I'll have to watch Peterson-Holt to assess Peterson. If he fights aggressively, he might be able to get the job done but Garcia can make you pay far more so it's dangerous. I'd give Lucas the edge against Garcia, but that's not a knock on Garcia. Rios-Garcia would be very fun, but Rios will not be able to eat the same type of shots he took from Alvarado the way he would from Garcia.

It sort of sounds like you're impressively unimpressed with the entire JR WW division. Yeah, I don't think the kid is any special but and if the right fights happen he's certainly bound to lose but there's no knock on that. That's boxing.
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Old 04-28-2013, 02:50 AM   #4
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Default Re: Reflections on Martinez & Judah-Garcia

The only thing I could see staving off of pessimism about Martinez's future after this fight is the idea that his mobility was so limited due to the ring conditions. Obviously for a fighter who breaks as many technical rules as he does, even a slight decline in athleticism will spell doom, but I guess I'm a bit hopeful that the flaws were the result of the wetness and the ring rust rather than signs of continuing and irreversible decline.

In terms of the fight, I was pretty happy when he started going to the body consistently early but it felt like that strategy went out the window after the 4th. He never gave Murray much of a reason or incentive to open himself up for head shots and Martinez had little success penetrating his guard. The broken hand obviously could have something to do with that as well, but Martinez also broke had similar problems with the left against Barker but was much more effective with the right in that fight.

Murray did an excellent job following his countrymen's strategy of not taking the bait and forcing Martinez to lead and I thought his command of distance was strong. Like Donaire, Martinez is a counterpuncher who isn't entirely comfortable leading. Donaire's problems more often though have to do with output, while Martinez by contrast will throw a lot, but leave himself in vulnerable positions. Obviously as you said Martinez's circling into Murray's wheelhouse all night made things somewhat comfortable for him, but I felt he was able to more consistently capitalize offensively on Martinez's mistakes than Barker and Macklin.
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Old 04-28-2013, 02:58 AM   #5
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Default Re: Reflections on Martinez & Judah-Garcia

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Garcia has never had a good jab. He's very stiff and awkward. Respect to him for being like u said a jack of all trades and an intelligent fighter but if he keeps fighting more skilled fighters them himself its just a matter of time before one of them put an L on his record. No shame in that though. I think he can beat Peterson or Mathysse but neither of those fights are clear. I wouldn't bet on him against the top guys at 147 though. Would love to see him vs Alvarado or Rios but that'll never happen.
Hes always had a good jab what in the world are u talking about. His jab looked great vs Holt and throughout most of his career. Hes never had a good jab? Thats 100% false.
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Old 04-28-2013, 02:59 AM   #6
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Default Re: Reflections on Martinez & Judah-Garcia

He didn't "take Murray lightly."

He lived and trained in Spain for the first time in years to be close to his knee surgeon.

That is something pretty hardcore to do. I think that is a pretty decisive fact which points to him NOT taking Murray lightly.

Let alone him staying in his hotel all week as to not go outside to get caught up in the glory with the media and fan hype.
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Old 04-28-2013, 05:17 AM   #7
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Default Re: Reflections on Martinez & Judah-Garcia

I've said for ages that the surgery was going to affect Martinez. He is too old to recover from that properly. He should of lost the fight.
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Old 04-28-2013, 05:24 AM   #8
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Default Re: Reflections on Martinez & Judah-Garcia

I thought Garcia was lunging way too far with his right hand and couldn't understand why Zab didn't punish him for it. A younger fighter with a quicker trigger could and will. Zab was more concerned (understandably) with not getting caught by one of those shots but a slicker fighter who's willing to stay in the pocket would have decapitated Garcia tonight.
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Old 04-28-2013, 05:58 PM   #9
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Default Re: Reflections on Martinez & Judah-Garcia

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The only thing I could see staving off of pessimism about Martinez's future after this fight is the idea that his mobility was so limited due to the ring conditions. Obviously for a fighter who breaks as many technical rules as he does, even a slight decline in athleticism will spell doom, but I guess I'm a bit hopeful that the flaws were the result of the wetness and the ring rust rather than signs of continuing and irreversible decline.

In terms of the fight, I was pretty happy when he started going to the body consistently early but it felt like that strategy went out the window after the 4th. He never gave Murray much of a reason or incentive to open himself up for head shots and Martinez had little success penetrating his guard. The broken hand obviously could have something to do with that as well, but Martinez also broke had similar problems with the left against Barker but was much more effective with the right in that fight.

Murray did an excellent job following his countrymen's strategy of not taking the bait and forcing Martinez to lead and I thought his command of distance was strong. Like Donaire, Martinez is a counterpuncher who isn't entirely comfortable leading. Donaire's problems more often though have to do with output, while Martinez by contrast will throw a lot, but leave himself in vulnerable positions. Obviously as you said Martinez's circling into Murray's wheelhouse all night made things somewhat comfortable for him, but I felt he was able to more consistently capitalize offensively on Martinez's mistakes than Barker and Macklin.

I was probably optimistic about Martinez's future. I want to be hopeful, but it doesn't look good because he's a fighter that relies so much on his athleticism as you've pointed out. I also wrote that before knowing for sure about the broken hand, and whatever varying pains he might be dealing with.

Good point about the body-punches. Murray seemed cautious early on, and then all of a sudden felt comfortable pressuring him. It was a weird change, and he had little incentive to drop his guard. Murray did a fantastic job measuring distance. I think Murray probably did improve upon his countryman's strategy, but it's hard to tell whether this was more due to Martinez's decline or ring rust, rather than it being just Murray. I'm curious about the punch-stats. I think Murray made Martinez pay much better than Barker when he did open up, but maybe Barker utilized his jab better and threw a hair more.

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Originally Posted by Nonito Smoak View Post
He didn't "take Murray lightly."

He lived and trained in Spain for the first time in years to be close to his knee surgeon.

That is something pretty hardcore to do. I think that is a pretty decisive fact which points to him NOT taking Murray lightly.

Let alone him staying in his hotel all week as to not go outside to get caught up in the glory with the media and fan hype.
Martinez looked to be in poor form in the training videos I saw. He looked a bit chubby and declined. Maybe it's more the knee than anything. Martinez is a pretty high volume fighter but he looked rather spent in the middle rounds. It was uncharacteristic. "Agua, agua" I kept hearing him say in between the corners. Martinez has gallantly closed the show to edge fights, but he never looked so desperate and tired in doing so then against Murray.

I think your point says he was more careful about his knee then anything else. Your last point is a good one, but Martinez has a rather strange, mixed history and feelings when it comes to his homeland. That could just me be overlooking into things.

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I've said for ages that the surgery was going to affect Martinez. He is too old to recover from that properly. He should of lost the fight.
It sucks. Maybe so. I believed he lost as well.

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I thought Garcia was lunging way too far with his right hand and couldn't understand why Zab didn't punish him for it. A younger fighter with a quicker trigger could and will. Zab was more concerned (understandably) with not getting caught by one of those shots but a slicker fighter who's willing to stay in the pocket would have decapitated Garcia tonight.
What type of slick fighter do you think would've been capable of beating this Garcia besides Floyd obviously? Peterson or Broner?
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Old 04-28-2013, 07:08 PM   #10
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Default Re: Reflections on Martinez & Judah-Garcia

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Martinez's legs looked a little heavy. While I think Martinez is past his prime at 38 years of age, I think it was more of a case of taking Murray more lightly than being old & faded overnight.
He was fighting in his home country for the first time in years, and in front of 50 000 people so even if he didn't think Murray was very good, he knew he had to look great so I think he prepared accordingly.

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It makes sense that Martinez hurt his left hand because his left hand was never really forcing Murray to respect him. This put Martinez in a more vulnerable situation considering Martinez was never untouchable, and as a bait & counter type fighter Martinez opens himself up & drops his hands to make his opponents pay. Martinez wasn't able to make Murray pay as much, perhaps because of that hand. He also looked very tired from as early as the middle rounds.
Actually he hurt Murray with it a couple times, it's just that Murray didn't wobble but he backed off several times and went on the defensive after getting hit by it. I don't think you can attribute that poor performance to a broken hand because Martinez showed those same deficiencies against Barker, it wasn't a case of "he can't hit hard enough to make his opponent respect him" but more a case of "he struggles against fighters who stay on the outside, box and pick their punches". And then there's the physical decline added to that.

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Regardless Martinez fought poorly. He circled left right into Murray's best asset which was his straight right hand and couldn't make Murray miss whenever he threw it. He was getting hit with the jab quite a bit too. When he was dropped, he got caught pulling straight back. When Martinez circled away from Murray's right hand, Murray looked a little more out of his comfort, throwing wider hooks, and Martinez became less predictable and less hittable. It also became clear in the last round, unfortunately for Martinez, as there were only glimpses of it showing early that Murray didn't like fighting on the backfoot. Murray became uncomfortable when Martinez pushed him back in the last round and caught Murray with a left hand. There was a moment just like that earlier in another round.
Martinez moves mostly to his left against orthodox fighters and to his right against southpaws, it goes against the textbook of boxing but it can work as long as you're moving back and you're controlling distance. The problem is his reflexes aren't as sharp as they used to be so now his technical flaws become more apparent.

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Back to Garcia, he's got an improved right hand, and varies it well as Paulie pointed out. He varies his offense well; going to both the body and head. Danny Garcia is essentially a jack of all traits but master of none. He's good at everything, but great at nothing. He may have great power, however. It's game-changing, but maybe not quite on the Lucas level. He's got a very good chin, and he's a monstrous JR WW. Made Judah looked tiny in comparison. Sometimes he loses discipline and can be a bit open & wild. But he's an offensive-minded stalker so he's never going to show perfect defense, but his defense definitely improved. He was blocking Zab's jab down quite effectively, and his reflexes seemed sharp. I think he needs to work on his jab. I don't buy that Zab took it away. He was hardly throwing it in the 1st two rounds as Al Bernstein illustrated how Garcia was controlling the action without a jab, which is odd, yet also impressive.
Well the jab is not very effective against southpaws anyway, the right hand lead is much more effective so it was smart from Garcia to focus on it. I just think he should have thrown it straight instead of looping it, and he should have hooked off of it.
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Old 04-28-2013, 07:16 PM   #11
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The only thing I could see staving off of pessimism about Martinez's future after this fight is the idea that his mobility was so limited due to the ring conditions. Obviously for a fighter who breaks as many technical rules as he does, even a slight decline in athleticism will spell doom, but I guess I'm a bit hopeful that the flaws were the result of the wetness and the ring rust rather than signs of continuing and irreversible decline.

In terms of the fight, I was pretty happy when he started going to the body consistently early but it felt like that strategy went out the window after the 4th. He never gave Murray much of a reason or incentive to open himself up for head shots and Martinez had little success penetrating his guard. The broken hand obviously could have something to do with that as well, but Martinez also broke had similar problems with the left against Barker but was much more effective with the right in that fight.

Murray did an excellent job following his countrymen's strategy of not taking the bait and forcing Martinez to lead and I thought his command of distance was strong. Like Donaire, Martinez is a counterpuncher who isn't entirely comfortable leading. Donaire's problems more often though have to do with output, while Martinez by contrast will throw a lot, but leave himself in vulnerable positions. Obviously as you said Martinez's circling into Murray's wheelhouse all night made things somewhat comfortable for him, but I felt he was able to more consistently capitalize offensively on Martinez's mistakes than Barker and Macklin.
Good post. Is it just me or was it not obvious that Martinez was mot in his usually impeccable condition?(for whatever reason) It was the most evident difference to me.
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Old 04-28-2013, 07:37 PM   #12
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Good post. Is it just me or was it not obvious that Martinez was mot in his usually impeccable condition?(for whatever reason) It was the most evident difference to me.
I did. No one seems to have noticed, though. He looked much more noticeably tired, even as early as the middle rounds.

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Actually he hurt Murray with it a couple times, it's just that Murray didn't wobble but he backed off several times and went on the defensive after getting hit by it.
I saw that and agree with it. This was when Martinez found success pushing Murray back, but this was all too brief and mainly happened in the 12th. Martinez did not seem to have the same kind of success pulling the trigger with power with his left on the back-foot or countering like he usually does, though. His jab was really his main weapon of scoring besides the brief left to the body.


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I don't think you can attribute that poor performance to a broken hand because Martinez showed those same deficiencies against Barker, it wasn't a case of "he can't hit hard enough to make his opponent respect him" but more a case of "he struggles against fighters who stay on the outside, box and pick their punches". And then there's the physical decline added to that.
I agree with your point, but I think it might have been a factor. Basically, Martinez was having trouble finding Murray and making him pay the way we would expect him to. I'm aware Murray had his guard up and protected frequently

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Martinez moves mostly to his left against orthodox fighters and to his right against southpaws, it goes against the textbook of boxing but it can work as long as you're moving back and you're controlling distance. The problem is his reflexes aren't as sharp as they used to be so now his technical flaws become more apparent..
I understand it wasn't necessarily unusual for Martinez to fight the way he did. I was just looking for a P4P fighter to make the necessary adjustments. Of course he relies on his reflexes, and Martinez was never an untouchable fighter. The thing is, Murray's straight right was his best asset and it was almost always finding it's mark. When Martinez moved right, he was making Murray miss, and Martinez was having more success. Martinez seems to be much better at slipping hooks and wider shots. He has more trouble with the straighter shots like jabs and rights. You can say this for most fighters, maybe, but I think it has more to do with the fact that Martinez is very much reflex-based, and he doesn't slip side to side as much as he tries to dip down at the last moment, then counter.



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Well the jab is not very effective against southpaws anyway, the right hand lead is much more effective so it was smart from Garcia to focus on it. I just think he should have thrown it straight instead of looping it, and he should have hooked off of it.
He did both, actually. He hooked off the right plenty of times, but Zab mostly was off the plane and under the shot.

It's funny you say that about the jab against southpaws because both Murray and Barker had plenty of success with it. I don't buy that.
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Old 04-28-2013, 08:21 PM   #13
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Default Re: Reflections on Martinez & Judah-Garcia

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I agree with your point, but I think it might have been a factor. Basically, Martinez was having trouble finding Murray and making him pay the way we would expect him to. I'm aware Murray had his guard up and protected frequently
Yeah I'm sure the broken hand was a factor but I think the main factor was Murray's strategy which threw Martinez off, just like Barker did.

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I understand it wasn't necessarily unusual for Martinez to fight the way he did. I was just looking for a P4P fighter to make the necessary adjustments. Of course he relies on his reflexes, and Martinez was never an untouchable fighter. The thing is, Murray's straight right was his best asset and it was almost always finding it's mark. When Martinez moved right, he was making Murray miss, and Martinez was having more success. Martinez seems to be much better at slipping hooks and wider shots. He has more trouble with the straighter shots like jabs and rights. You can say this for most fighters, maybe, but I think it has more to do with the fact that Martinez is very much reflex-based, and he doesn't slip side to side as much as he tries to dip down at the last moment, then counter.
I was shocked at how often Murray was landing the right hand flush but I don't think moving to his right more often would have made Martinez less hittable as southpaws are very vulnerable to left hooks, especially southpaws with low right hands. Look how flush the left hook lands after the right grazes him :

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Chavez also did most of the damage with his left hook when he dropped Martinez :

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He did both, actually. He hooked off the right plenty of times, but Zab mostly was off the plane and under the shot.

It's funny you say that about the jab against southpaws because both Murray and Barker had plenty of success with it. I don't buy that.
Garcia did it early on but not consistently enough in my book, he seemed to put more emphasis on the looping right hand.

Well that's how it works against most southpaws, there's a reason why Floyd didn't jab much against Zab and Ward didn't jab much against Dawson. Martinez is an unusual southpaw.

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Old 04-28-2013, 09:10 PM   #14
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What type of slick fighter do you think would've been capable of beating this Garcia besides Floyd obviously? Peterson or Broner?
That's the kind of mistake that Broner lives on. Not sure that he would stay in the pocket with Garcia if he got on his bike against DeLeon though. Pacquiao would kill him for that mistake. JMM, if he's still in good condition, would make him pay. Yes, Floyd all night and day. Soto has the skills but he's probably too shot and too small at the weight. Guzman could do it.

I also feel like Garcia would be a great fight for Linares, who is technically beautiful and might be able to put enough hurt on Garcia early that he wouldn't get eaten up late like he has been lately.
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:18 PM   #15
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Yeah I'm sure the broken hand was a factor but I think the main factor was Murray's strategy which threw Martinez off, just like Barker did.


I was shocked at how often Murray was landing the right hand flush but I don't think moving to his right more often would have made Martinez less hittable as southpaws are very vulnerable to left hooks, especially southpaws with low right hands. Look how flush the left hook lands after the right grazes him :

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Chavez also did most of the damage with his left hook when he dropped Martinez :

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
I'll disagree with you here. Those two GIFs illustrated Martinez on the ropes. Southpaws are more vulnerable to the right hand than left hook, and this definitely showed against Murray/Barker for Sergio. Of course, a clean left hook landing is generally going to be the more damaging blow, especially when it's coming from a hooker like Chavez. The reason Martinez had such success against Chavez is because he's a hooker that can't throw straight punches for ****. Chavez doesn't really have much of a right hand. Either way, each fight is different, which is the crux my point. I'm not making general blanket statements about how Sergio ought to fight. I'd never tell him to circle in Chavez's left hook when the guy has an aversion to throwing straight punches.


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Well that's how it works against most southpaws, there's a reason why Floyd didn't jab much against Zab and Ward didn't jab much against Dawson. Martinez is an unusual southpaw.
Fair point. Ward used more of a hook from a range against Dawson as opposed to a jab if memory serves me right.
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