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Old 02-17-2008, 04:36 PM   #1
janitor
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Default Last nights fights, a classic forum perspective.

I would like to give the members of the classic forum the chance to coment on last nights fights and make predictions about how the fighters will develop.

Since we do this with long dead fighters all the time.

Kelly Pavlik has beaten Jermain Taylor with some controvesy. Taylor remains verry much a factor in boxing.

Nicolai Valuev has scored a TKO over janitor having foiled his prediction and displayed things he did not expect to see from him.

Will Janitor win the rematch?
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Old 02-17-2008, 04:48 PM   #2
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Default Re: Last nights fights, a classic forum perspective.

I think Pavlik is a good-but-not-necessarily-legendary champion and will lose his belt within his next five defenses. Taylor will, as you say, remain a factor, and will likely move up to super middleweight, where I think he should have a solid chance at gaining a belt or two once Calzaghe finally fizzles out. Valuev will probably hang around in the top 15 for a few years, but will never be able to consistently and uncontroversially win against contender-level opposition.
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Old 02-17-2008, 05:20 PM   #3
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Last nights fights, a classic forum perspective.

I thought it was Valuev's best performance up-to-date, despite him being 34 years old. He looked sharp and had a good punch variety with mixing in the right uppercut now and then. Plus he timed his short right hand really well. Part of that was also because of how limited Liakhovic was, though. He really disappointed me. He seemed a bit gunshy, probably because of those short right hands. But the way to beat Valuev is to get in with combinations and get out. He tried to jab and hook a bit.
A dominant win over a fringe contender. I agree with MF, he can beat a few more contenders, but will never be a big force in the division. I don't see him beating Chagaev in the rematch.
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:46 AM   #4
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Default Re: Last nights fights, a classic forum perspective.

I only saw Pavlik-Taylor II and here are my impressions of it (warning: stop reading now if you aren't in the mood for a pessimistic take ) :

Firstly to a peripheral point: The people who do compubox punch stats should give it up or they should scrap the thing altogether because they haven't a clue on how to distinguish a punch that lands from a punch that's blocked. Pavlik did not land 90 more punches than Taylor, just as PBF didn't land 100 more punches than DLH.

Now, to the fight itself: many have said that his was a pretty good fight but I actually thought it was average at best. The fight was more telling for the deficiencies that showed up in both fighters rather than the good work that they did. Pavlik wasn't doing what he should have been doing from the get go to make things easy for himself: going to the body. Taylor wasn't doing what he should have been doing: being active and throwing more than a couple of flurries each round. Pavlik looked extremely hittable whenever Taylor opened up and Pavlik showcased the handspeed that made Antonio Margarito look like Sugar Ray Robinson. Taylor gasped for air whenever Pavlik went downstairs and had Pavlik invested more to the body in the early rounds, Taylor with have been ready to go by about round 9 or 10.

As it turns out I had the fight pretty close. Pavlik was struggling to land anything clean (I will give Taylor some credit for suring up his defense, though Pavlik was throwing the same combinations ad nauseum and seemed to lack any snap to his shots whatsoever) and Taylor was struggling to throw anything at all. What he did throw was decent, but there wasn't much of it.

I had Pavlik taking the fight by a point, and I have no argument against anyone that has it by a point for Taylor or anything as wide as about 3 points for Pavlik for there were quite a few close rounds.

Rounds 2,3,4,5 and 10 going to Taylor.
Rounds 1,6,8,9,11 and 12 going to Pavlik.
Round 7 being even.

How long will Pavlik's reign last? I don't know for I don't know much about the possible opponents out there for him. What I do know is that anyone with good defense and a good chin will give him hell, for other than Kelly's power he looks pretty average. He does have a high workrate, which will also be hard to counter, but Jermain Taylor nearly beat him throwing 30 or 40 punches a round, so I don't see that as a boon for Kelly if he isn't hitting the other guy with hardly any of his thrown shots.
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:49 AM   #5
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Default Re: Last nights fights, a classic forum perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
Firstly to a peripheral point: The people who do compubox punch stats should give it up or they should scrap the thing altogether because they haven't a clue on how to distinguish a punch that lands from a punch that's blocked. Pavlik did not land 90 more punches than Taylor, just as PBF didn't land 100 more punches than DLH.
I've been saying this for some time.
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:58 AM   #6
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Default Re: Last nights fights, a classic forum perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
I've been saying this for some time.
There was one round there last night (don't ask me which one because I'm not going to review that fight ever again) where they said Kelly Pavlik landed about 21 jabs for the round. Pure comedy. If he landed 5 in that round it would have been a stretch.

Moral of the story? **** compubox.

Oh and whilst I'm in a negative mood I'll stick it to Harold Lederman as well.

One minute he's telling up he's looking at who's doing the most damage the next minute he's telling us he's scoring accoridng to who was throwing and landing more. So which is it Harold? **** me dead, the guy has been judging fights for how long now and he still hasn't developed a consistent method. **** him off as well.

Sorry guys, I did warn you about the pessimism

P.S. I'm not perfect myself, in fact I'm FAR FAR FAR from it, but I need to vent. Cheers
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Old 02-18-2008, 03:15 AM   #7
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Default Re: Last nights fights, a classic forum perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
Pavlik wasn't doing what he should have been doing from the get go to make things easy for himself: going to the body. Taylor wasn't doing what he should have been doing: being active and throwing more than a couple of flurries each round. Pavlik looked extremely hittable whenever Taylor opened up and Pavlik showcased the handspeed that made Antonio Margarito look like Sugar Ray Robinson. Taylor gasped for air whenever Pavlik went downstairs and had Pavlik invested more to the body in the early rounds, Taylor with have been ready to go by about round 9 or 10.
I totally agree. Good asessment. The fight was there for both to win, but Pavlik hit mostly gloves and shoulders and Taylor simply wasn't busy enough.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
I had Pavlik taking the fight by a point, and I have no argument against anyone that has it by a point for Taylor or anything as wide as about 3 points for Pavlik for there were quite a few close rounds.
Once again, I completely agree. Scoring it in my head, I had Pavlik winning by a point as well. The judge's scorecards made me wonder if I was watching the same fight. I think one judge had it 117-111 for Pavlik (in any event, it was a wide margin whatever the score) but no way did Pavlik dominate. His corner seemed to think it was pretty close, judging by the urgency they showed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
How long will Pavlik's reign last? I don't know for I don't know much about the possible opponents out there for him. What I do know is that anyone with good defense and a good chin will give him hell, for other than Kelly's power he looks pretty average. He does have a high workrate, which will also be hard to counter, but Jermain Taylor nearly beat him throwing 30 or 40 punches a round, so I don't see that as a boon for Kelly if he isn't hitting the other guy with hardly any of his thrown shots.
He seems a decent and likeable guy, but I'd be surprised if he becomes a dominant champion.
His hands aren't that quick, he's predictable and I don't think he can be classified a powerpuncher. Anyway, I wish him all the best.

I have to give Taylor credit for putting up a good fight; it's never easy fighting the guy that just knocked you out. His future is clearly at super middleweight now, though.
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Old 02-18-2008, 03:17 AM   #8
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Default Re: Last nights fights, a classic forum perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
and I don't think he can be classified a powerpuncher
Would you classify him more as an accumulation puncher with heavy hands?
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Old 02-18-2008, 03:17 AM   #9
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Default Re: Last nights fights, a classic forum perspective.

I would think so, yes. But I need to see more to be sure about that.
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Old 02-18-2008, 04:07 AM   #10
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Default Re: Last nights fights, a classic forum perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
I totally agree. Good asessment. The fight was there for both to win, but Pavlik hit mostly gloves and shoulders and Taylor simply wasn't busy enough.
Spot on mate.

Quote:
Once again, I completely agree. Scoring it in my head, I had Pavlik winning by a point as well. The judge's scorecards made me wonder if I was watching the same fight. I think one judge had it 117-111 for Pavlik (in any event, it was a wide margin whatever the score) but no way did Pavlik dominate. His corner seemed to think it was pretty close, judging by the urgency they showed.
Yeah, I can't see a 117-111 unless you're giving Pavlik credit simply for throwing punches. If you're going by the criteria you should be going by, 117-111 simply isn't tennable.


Quote:
He seems a decent and likeable guy, but I'd be surprised if he becomes a dominant champion.
His hands aren't that quick, he's predictable and I don't think he can be classified a powerpuncher. Anyway, I wish him all the best.

I have to give Taylor credit for putting up a good fight; it's never easy fighting the guy that just knocked you out. His future is clearly at super middleweight now, though.
Good points. I dont like Taylor's chances against Kessler, but he could jag a belt at 168 once Joe calls it quits.
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Old 02-19-2008, 09:15 PM   #11
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Default Re: Last nights fights, a classic forum perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklyn1550
Would you classify him more as an accumulation puncher with heavy hands?
That's a good way to put it.

As far as the fight goes it was a tough fight. Good hard, technical fight.

It should make Pavlik a much better fighter. He averaged around 70 punches per round, but had to be protective of himself at all times, and didn't endure severe punishment in the process. Not the kind of find where you leave a piece of yourself in the ring, but one that was hard fought. Those types of fights sharpen you up as a fighter.

I think both fighters showed improvement from the first fight.
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