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Old 04-27-2013, 12:01 PM   #76
Rob_Floyd
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Default Re: Mir V Werdum

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Look at the wrestler guy for example, Dos Caros? is that his name? He takes a LHK from Mirko slumps down to the floor like he's been knocked out clean, the camera switches view to the side and his eyes are wide open, he looks totally compos mentis.
Dude, did you hear the sound that kick made? Plus the follow up punch? Unless Dos Caras had a Mark Hunt chin, there is no way he, or just about anyone else would would have survived it.

Plus, open eyes aren't a sign of consciousness. Even guys who are stiffened up out cold generally have their eyes open.
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:06 PM   #77
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He must have hidden a blade under his mask too...
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:12 PM   #78
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Guys, I don't doubt for one second that the punch and kick landed hard.

And I don't doubt for one second that the blood was a result of those blows.

But it doesn't change the fact that he doesn't look like a guy who's just been knocked out.

Of course yeah, guys can get sparked and still have their eyes open, but it's the look in his eyes what got me.

He looks like he's all there, like I said, totally compos mentis.

Have a look at some other open eye KO's....their eyes are open but they look OUT.

I'm not one of those guys who goes looking for stuff, I'd prefer to think it was a legit KO.

But like I say.....it just doesn't look right.
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:17 PM   #79
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I've watched it back guys, the kick does sound HARD when it lands that's for sure.

But still, he doesn't look like a guy who'd been KO'd to me.

Has this guy ever spoken on it?
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:17 PM   #80
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Default Re: Mir V Werdum

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Guys, I don't doubt for one second that the punch and kick landed hard.

And I don't doubt for one second that the blood was a result of those blows.

But it doesn't change the fact that he doesn't look like a guy who's just been knocked out.

Of course yeah, guys can get sparked and still have their eyes open, but it's the look in his eyes what got me.

He looks like he's all there, like I said, totally compos mentis.

Have a look at some other open eye KO's....their eyes are open but they look OUT.

I'm not one of those guys who goes looking for stuff, I'd prefer to think it was a legit KO.

But like I say.....it just doesn't look right.
It certainly was a good shot that landed with significant impact and could be a legit KO. But you are right, he does look straight into the camera and then immediately looks away as soon as he sees it, as if he is very aware of it. He doesn't have that glassy, open-eyed stare at nothing, or the confused, angry "what the **** just happened, why is the fight over?" look that is also very common.

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Old 04-27-2013, 12:22 PM   #81
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Default Re: Mir V Werdum

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It certainly was a good shot that landed with significant impact and could be a legit KO. But you are right, he does look straight into the camera and then immediately looks away as soon as he sees it, as if he is very aware of it. He doesn't have that glassy, open-eyed stare at nothing, or the confused, angry "what the **** just happened, why is the fight over?" look that is also very common.

Yep, my thoughts exactly.

Has this guy ever been asked about the fight? Would like to hear what he said.
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:23 PM   #82
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Default Re: Mir V Werdum

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Yeah the Schaub loss is shocking. But at that stage, he had pretty much given up already. He lost his fire, his drive and his confidence. He was just going through the motions and didn't even believe in himself, and that is why he was losing to journeymen. Not because his body was too broken down to compete any more.

If he had Shogun's mentality of remaining mentally tough and ruthless and ferocious even through a physical decline, he would have done much better and even made a serious title run. He had that in him, physically.

His K1 victory shows that. He went back to where he was comfortable, he trained hard and showed real desire, and he won a tournament where he was the oldest guy there. Can you see a 38 year old Chuck Liddell winning that kind of tournament? His chin would have inevitably betrayed him. But Cro Cop showed that his body could still hold up even years after five late-career knockout losses in the UFC.

Yes, I do think Chuck could've won an equivalent tournament. I thought Chuck was fighting well against Franklin before he got iced.

You're placing way too much stock in this K1 victory. K1 sucks now, and none of the best kickboxers in the world were even at that tournament. That doesn't impress me at all.

If Chuck went to a small MMA organization where the standard is much lower such as BAMMA or something, yes I think he could definitely outpoint some mediocrities as Crocop is doing now in K1, on the basis that Chuck was still able to fight in his last MMA fights, he just couldn't take a shot anymore.

Crocop is the same. For spells in the Barry and Nelson fights, he was doing OK, but as soon as he gets hit he's in all sorts of trouble, in a way he wouldn't have been in his prime.

And the guy bulldozing him (Schaub) is nowhere near as good as Franklin or Rua or Rashad. If anything, the evidence suggests CC is even more shot than Chuck. I find it hard to believe a Schaub-level LHW would've beaten Chuck in 2011 (someone like Bonnar?). I mean, I (like many) fancied Chuck to beat Tito after TUF. And I still think he would have. And even late-career Tito was a better fighter than Schaub.
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:25 PM   #83
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Default Re: Mir V Werdum

Couple of examples just to help my get point across

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Now to be fair, of course these don't in any way prove Dos Caras took a dive, but I just wanted to show them to enhance my point a little.

The way he went down was as if he'd been knocked out cold on his feet because he just dropped straight down, he takes another left hook to the jaw for his troubles then what, 4 seconds later? he looks totally normal, like completely with it (barring the cut).

As you can see, generally if someone gets knocked out cold, they have that 'Thousand Yard Stare' type look.
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:34 PM   #84
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Yes, I do think Chuck could've won an equivalent tournament. I thought Chuck was fighting well against Franklin before he got iced.

You're placing way too much stock in this K1 victory. K1 sucks now, and none of the best kickboxers in the world were even at that tournament. That doesn't impress me at all.

If Chuck went to a small MMA organization where the standard is much lower such as BAMMA or something, yes I think he could definitely outpoint some mediocrities as Crocop is doing now in K1, on the basis that Chuck was still able to fight in his last MMA fights, he just couldn't take a shot anymore.

Crocop is the same. For spells in the Barry and Nelson fights, he was doing OK, but as soon as he gets hit he's in all sorts of trouble, in a way he wouldn't have been in his prime.

And the guy bulldozing him (Schaub) is nowhere near as good as Franklin or Rua or Rashad. If anything, the evidence suggests CC is even more shot than Chuck. I find it hard to believe a Schaub-level LHW would've beaten Chuck in 2011 (someone like Bonnar?). I mean, I (like many) fancied Chuck to beat Tito after TUF. And I still think he would have. And even late-career Tito was a better fighter than Schaub.
Well we can agree to disagree. But we can at least do it without the needless ****ing anger and aggression. My stance on it is most of the way the same as yours - I never claimed that prime Cro Cop lost to Schaub or that Cro Cop sucks. All I ever said was that he could have done better than 4-6, but he never adjusted his style to the cage and anyway his heart wasn't in it anymore. Which you agree with. So why the need to be so arrogant and dismissive and hostile?

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Old 04-27-2013, 12:45 PM   #85
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Default Re: Mir V Werdum

This fight HAS to happen. We have to see once and for all who the greatest heavyweight submission artist of all time is - and this fight can do that for us.
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:50 PM   #86
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Default Re: Mir V Werdum

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Well we can agree to disagree. But we can at least do it without the needless ****ing anger and aggression. My stance on it is most of the way the same as yours - I never claimed that prime Cro Cop lost to Schaub or that Cro Cop sucks. All I ever said was that he could have done better than 4-6, but he never adjusted his style to the cage and anyway his heart wasn't in it anymore. Which you agree with. So why the need to be so arrogant and dismissive and hostile?

I don't understand what 'adjusted his style to the cage' means, nor am I interested in a further explanation of this silliness. The guy had a long tough career, suffered a brutal knockout, and was then in terminal decline, to the point where he became a shot fighter, culminating in a brutal loss to a mediocrity. No mystery anywhere along the line there.

I have been disrespectful because it makes my blood boil when internet nerds do that thing where they impose an opinion on you based on nothing just to counter it - it's pathetic. And this was further compounded when you steadfastly refused to acknowledge and/or apologize for this. That was poor, and irked me somewhat.

I also feel you represent a class of MMA fan that do not sufficiently respect fighters who had the majority of their careers outside of the UFC. And from what I've read of your posts over the past couple of weeks, I think you're a bit dumb, in an irritating sort of way. A lot of what you say is, pardon my French, utter merde.

See you around.
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:58 PM   #87
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Default Re: Mir V Werdum

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I don't understand what 'adjusted his style to the cage' means, nor am I interested in a further explanation of this silliness. The guy had a long tough career, suffered a brutal knockout, and was then in terminal decline, to the point where he became a shot fighter, culminating in a brutal loss to a mediocrity. No mystery anywhere along the line there.

I have been disrespectful because it makes my blood boil when internet nerds do that thing where they impose an opinion on you based on nothing just to counter it - it's pathetic. And this was further compounded when you steadfastly refused to acknowledge and/or apologize for this. That was poor, and irked me somewhat.

I also feel you represent a class of MMA fan that do not sufficiently respect fighters who had the majority of their careers outside of the UFC. And from what I've read of your posts over the past couple of weeks, I think you're a bit dumb, in an irritating sort of way. A lot of what you say is, pardon my French, utter merde.

See you around.
Right, except I've seen a few of his fights in PRIDE, and I rate him as the #3 HW ever. I would have shifted JDS to that spot had he beaten Cain, but he didn't. No doubt Cro Crop will fall out of the top 3 in the forseeable future - at the hands of Cain or JDS, it would seem - but that is the nature of things in a young, evolving sport.

And you can accuse me of a lot of things, but not of failing to fully explain any opinion I have. You complain about me misrepresenting your position, but about 90% of the content of your posts prior to your epic essay consisted of nothing but you telling me how stupid I am.
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Old 04-27-2013, 01:08 PM   #88
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Default Re: Mir V Werdum

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I don't understand what 'adjusted his style to the cage' means
Some MMA purists feel that cage fighting and ring fighting offer completely different advantages and disadvantages to fighters. For example - it is easier to cut off a ring and corner an opponent inside a boxing ring as opposed to when the fighters have a huge octagon or cage to run around inside of.

Secondly there is a difference between the elbows allowed but no kicking/kneeing downed opponents of the UFC makes for a different type of fight than the no elbows but kicking/kneeing downed opponents environment of the Pride ring.

So when someone says a fighter never made that adjustment - that's exactly what it means.
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Old 04-27-2013, 01:14 PM   #89
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Default Re: Mir V Werdum

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Some MMA purists feel that cage fighting and ring fighting offer completely different advantages and disadvantages to fighters. For example - it is easier to cut off a ring and corner an opponent inside a boxing ring as opposed to when the fighters have a huge octagon or cage to run around inside of.

Secondly there is a difference between the elbows allowed but no kicking/kneeing downed opponents of the UFC makes for a different type of fight than the no elbows but kicking/kneeing downed opponents environment of the Pride ring.

So when someone says a fighter never made that adjustment - that's exactly what it means.
Exactly. In a ring Cro Cop likes to herd people into a corner and make them constantly worry about being trapped and executed. But in a cage with no corners he tends to just follow guys around ineffectively.

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Old 04-27-2013, 02:02 PM   #90
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Default Re: Mir V Werdum

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Some MMA purists feel that cage fighting and ring fighting offer completely different advantages and disadvantages to fighters. For example - it is easier to cut off a ring and corner an opponent inside a boxing ring as opposed to when the fighters have a huge octagon or cage to run around inside of.

Secondly there is a difference between the elbows allowed but no kicking/kneeing downed opponents of the UFC makes for a different type of fight than the no elbows but kicking/kneeing downed opponents environment of the Pride ring.

So when someone says a fighter never made that adjustment - that's exactly what it means.
Thanks for that, Captain Obvious. I know these reasons that people give for the differences in fighter performance in a cage as opposed to a ring, I was being sarcastic, as I don't understand how anyone can think this matters a jot. Differences in rules make a difference, though not a massive one, but the only difference (re cage/ring) that has any relevance is that the cage makes it easier for wrestlers, something that has no relevance to Crocop anyway. People harping on about this as if it's some critical factor is absolute horse manure, the reasons the Pride guys started losing was the same reasons as their UFC contemporaries, as explained earlier.
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