Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-19-2008, 09:32 AM   #1
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,317
vCash: 1000
Default Liston or Foreman? Who was better? My breakdown on 11 categories

Liston or Foreman?

I have seen dozens of threads on who was the better. As a fan of both who has seen both of them on at least 10 different occasions here is my break down on 11 separate categories.

Power: Both Liston and Foreman rank among the hardest hitters ever. Liston’s could hurt you with his jab alone. His right cross was fierce, his left hook could knock down a wall, and his uppercut was a fishing type of blow as well. Liston hit the heavy bag harder than anyone I saw on film. Foreman much like Liston had a heavy jab, a thunderous cross, a booming hook, and a head snapping type of uppercut. Liston punched more form the shoulders, Foreman got more leverage in his hips and legs. Both Foreman and Liston could hammer the body too. There is little difference between the two. Call it a draw.

Size: Defined as a full-blown tale of the tape. Liston was not very tall, but he certainly had some super heavyweight like dimensions. Among them were an 80+-inch reach, 15” fists, big legs, big arms wide shoulders, and a thick neck. Foreman was taller, slightly heavier, and slightly more muscled, but he had less reach. I give Foreman a slight edge here.

Skills on Offense: Liston was a rare technical type of fighter with his four basic punches. Liston could excel at either in-fighting or out fighting. Some feel Liston had the best jab among heavyweights. I disagree a bit but it’s certainly arguable. Liston was perhaps the most complete offensive heavyweight of all time. He could box, brawl or slug at arms length, mid-distance or close distance, and land any punch with good technique. Wow. Liston could also combo off his jab a bit. Foreman was more of a bar room brawler who did not rely much on technique. In fact he did not even care if he had technique or not. As far as Foreman was concerned it was the other person needed technique. Foreman came for the school of Rocky Marciano and tried to KO his man with just about every punch he threw. Foreman could miss badly, or be countered. Big edge to Liston on skills.


Skills on Defense: Defined as the ability make the other guy miss, punch anticipation, clinching, block shots with the gloves, base guard stance, use of footwork to get out of the way, and covering up. Liston had a classic high guard, and those huge fists made it even harder to land something solid on. Liston also had quality head movement, which is rare among heavyweights. Sonny did not have to block or clinch much, so he did not develop these type of skills. Foreman defense was mostly his offense. Foreman wanted to land and put pressure on the other guy. His guard geared towards offense, and he did not move his head much. Clinching for Foreman was reserved for pushing the other fighter backwards! Neither guy had top punch anticipation. Liston could make the other guy miss and get out of the way at times. Advantage to Liston.


Hand and foot speed: If Liston had a weakness it was average hand speed. I think Foreman, who was by no means fast handed, might have a small edge on Liston hand speed. Both Liston and Foreman had relatively quick feet for big guys, and could cut off the ring on smaller boxers. I do think Foreman was just a tad more dynamic overall, so give him the slightest edge here.


Quality of competition fought: Liston resume outside of Ali is a bit thin by the standards of all time greats, with Patterson, Machen Folley, and Williams being his best opponents. Foreman fought a who’s who of the 60’s and 70’s. Fraizer, Norton, Chavalo, Lyle, Young, etc… I am focusing on both fighters in their primes, but Foreman also fought top opposition in the 1990’s as well. Big edge to Foreman.


Chin: Both fighters had top chins. Liston did not face as many punchers or get hit with as many bombs as Foreman did, so his chin is a bit more untested. I do think Liston could be hurt a tad easier than Foreman, who was only stopped once in his long ring career. Foreman’s stoppage loss was stamina related than anything else. Advantage to Foreman.

Stamina: Liston had excellent stamina, and could fight a hard 12 rounds with plenty left in the tank. Liston never had to go 15 rounds, but based on how he looked vs Machen in the 12 round match, I think Liston was a true 15 round fighter. Foreman main weakness was suspect stamina in the mid to later rounds. Part of this was poor punch management by Foreman. Later in his career, Foreman wise up a bit and was more judicious with his reserves. Advantage to Liston.


Heart: Liston deep down was a bully, a thug and a quitter. The thing is very few fighters could last long enough to test these intangibles. When things did not go Sonny’s way, he often fouled. Liston quit vs Ali, and likely took a dive in the other fight. In other fights he was accused of putting a burning like liquid substance on his gloves. Foreman’s fighting heart seemed to be very good, except in the Ali match where I think he mentally packed it in, and in the Young match were Foreman was concerned about gassing late. Edge to Foreman.

Ring Generalship: Liston knew what the other guy had, and did not have. Liston was a rare fighter who matched up well vs punchers, swamers and boxers. Liston never punched himself out, or was out thought in the ring. In general he fought the right type of fight. Foreman’s ring generalship was questionable. It cost him vs Ali. If Foreman would have simply 1-2’d Ali on the ropes, then backed off and collected his breath, he would have forced Ali to change things up. Forman should have clinched more often when he was tired, but did not. Foreman never took rounds off to catch a second wind either. Advantage to Liston.

Intimidation / Killer instinct: Oh Boy. Foreman was so big and strong many thought he was un-beatable. Big punchers with tough chins who go all out are always highly feared. Intimidation was a big weapon of Foreman, and once he had you hurt, that was it. But deep down, I think Foreman was a somewhat fearful guy. Liston was a street thug. A man who has in many fights in and out of the ring with other citizens and the cops. Liston was also a mob enforcer. It is safe to say Liston went though some real life and death situations in and out of prison. You just can’t replicate that without experiencing it. Liston pioneered the start down as a weapon, and seemed to scare his opponents stiff to the point where one got the feeling the match might end right after the stare down. Even Ali was scared of Liston. Small edge to Liston.


Tally:
Liston:5
Foreman: 5
Draw : 1

Last edited by Mendoza; 02-19-2008 at 10:03 AM.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 02-19-2008, 09:37 AM   #2
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,326
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston or Foreman? Who was better? My breakdown on 11 categories

I dont mind offering you a small wager that if they fought both in their primes Liston would win decisively.

I think that where your analysis falls down is that it gives equal weighting to factors like a small/debatable advantage in power or chin for Foreman and a huge advantage in defense or ring generalship for Liston.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 09:44 AM   #3
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,317
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston or Foreman? Who was better? My breakdown on 11 categories

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I dont mind offering you a small wager that if they fought both in their primes Liston would win decisively.

I think that where your analysis falls down is that it gives equal weighting to factors like a small/debatable advantage in power or chin for Foreman and a huge advantage in defense or ring generalship for Liston.
I have the power as even. I have the chin slightly in Foreman's favor. Ring Generalship is easily in Liston's favor. I am scoring this like a boxing match. Some rounds are won by narrow margins, other by significant margins.

To put in slight, medium or big advantages in the tallies would make it a bit clunky. Besides, I prefer to give the information I as see it and let the readers make up their own minds.

Legacy wise, Foreman is ahead. Head to head, I think Liston by a small margin. If they fought for real in their primes, its hard to predict. Foreman would need to finish Liston in the early ( not likely ) or mid rounds before he gasses and Liston would need to keep his composure. I do not think Foreman wins the decison on the cards. Either guy could go.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 09:48 AM   #4
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,326
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston or Foreman? Who was better? My breakdown on 11 categories

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Legacy wise, Foreman is ahead. Head to head, I think Liston by a small margin.
Only a small margin?

I think that one thing you might have compared is the stylistic consideration which would heavily favour Liston by my estimate.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 09:55 AM   #5
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,317
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston or Foreman? Who was better? My breakdown on 11 categories

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Only a small margin?

I think that one thing you might have compared is the stylistic consideration which would heavily favour Liston by my estimate.
Yes. Liston head to head over Foreman by a small margin in my opinion. I view both are top 5-8 ranked all time guys. Not a huge difference. The thing is, Foreman beat better comeptition by a good margin. Foreman is a bit more battle tested than Liston is, and IMO fought and beat better punchers, swarmers, and boxers. This has to count for somthing.


I think Liston main problem was intangibles, while Foreman's was stamina. Liston is less likely to be out boxed or out thought, but more liekly to be hurt, foul, or quit.

IMO, these two are close. I do think Liston is better because he'll have more left in the later rounds, and you just can't knock everyone out.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 09:58 AM   #6
Quick Cash
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 565
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston or Foreman? Who was better? My breakdown on 11 categories

This is a good analysis, Mendoza. The aren't any glaring mistakes, but of course the lot of these are arguable.

I see you've picked up Liston's activity at the end of the Machen fight. Good going. You could probably add Eddie in there as one of the top opponents for Sonny if you have Lyle and Young for Foreman. Also, if I recall correctly, Foreman never faced Shavers.
Quick Cash is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 09:59 AM   #7
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,326
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston or Foreman? Who was better? My breakdown on 11 categories

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Yes. Liston head to head over Foreman by a small margin in my opinion. I view both are top 5-8 ranked all time guys. Not a huge difference. The thing is, Foreman beat better comeptition by a good margin. Foreman is a bit more battle tested than Liston is, and IMO fought and beat better punchers, swarmers, and boxers. This has to count for somthing.


I think Liston main problem was intangibles, while Foreman's was stamina. Liston is less likely to be out boxed or out thought, but more liekly to be hurt, foul, or quit.

IMO, these two are close. I do think Liston is better because he'll have more left in the later rounds, and you just can't knock everyone out.
I think that from a stylistic standpoint Foreman would put on a clinic on how not to fight a counterpuncher like Liston.

This would be the most important factor.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 10:05 AM   #8
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,317
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston or Foreman? Who was better? My breakdown on 11 categories

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Cash
This is a good analysis, Mendoza. The aren't any glaring mistakes, but of course the lot of these are arguable.

I see you've picked up Liston's activity at the end of the Machen fight. Good going. You could probably add Eddie in there as one of the top opponents for Sonny if you have Lyle and Young for Foreman. Also, if I recall correctly, Foreman never faced Shavers.
I edited it to read Machen among Liston's best opponents, but I still think Foreman fought better oppoents. While Machen was good, Frazier was great. I think Lyle was a bit better than Machen too. While Patterson might be rate better than Lyle, he's meat every time vs Liston. Lyle at least woudl have a chance. Jimmy Young at his best was a handfull.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 10:06 AM   #9
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,434
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston or Foreman? Who was better? My breakdown on 11 categories

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I dont mind offering you a small wager that if they fought both in their primes Liston would win decisively.

I think that where your analysis falls down is that it gives equal weighting to factors like a small/debatable advantage in power or chin for Foreman and a huge advantage in defense or ring generalship for Liston.
I agree with this post. The Klitchsko thread worked so well because the differnces tend to be smaller.

I also consider Liston the vastly superior puncher in composite terms.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 10:26 AM   #10
Quick Cash
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 565
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston or Foreman? Who was better? My breakdown on 11 categories

Foreman definitely fought fighters at a higher level than the ones Sonny faced especially if you factor in his later career. However, when you speak of Sonny's opposition collectively, you can't sidestep Liston's great accomplishment in cleaning out a division full of very capable contenders. Foreman, on his way up, fought mostly non-descript fellows; he redressed the situation with Frazier, Norton & Lyle only much later.

I tend to agree that Foreman did indeed fight the better lot, but there isn't a great gap particularly if only their prime years are considered.
Quick Cash is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 10:42 AM   #11
Holmes' Jab
Master Jabber
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,551
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston or Foreman? Who was better? My breakdown on 11 categories

I liked your analysis Mendoza, wouldn't agree with absolutely all of it but well thought out and researched nonetheless. Here's my take:


Power: Even's regarding raw power. Liston's technique excution is better so I might give a slight edge to him overall.

Size: Foreman, though not by a big margin.

Skills on Offense: Liston had more tools, Foreman was stylistically very crude but it worked for him well. We're talking about pure ability, though so Liston wins.

Skills on Defense: Liston. Foreman improved in his second career but Liston was still better.

Hand and foot speed: About even.

Quality of competition fought: Edge to Foreman, overall.

Chin: Both very durable. Foreman just.

Stamina: Liston, by a fair margin.

Heart: Foreman.

Ring Generalship: Liston.

Intimidation / Killer instinct: Both about equal.

Overall Totals: Liston 5, Foreman 4: with 2 categories even.

Head-to-head: Liston, by UD (10-5 in rounds or so).

Last edited by Holmes' Jab; 02-19-2008 at 05:07 PM.
Holmes' Jab is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 11:55 AM   #12
anon1
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 241
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston or Foreman? Who was better? My breakdown on 11 categories

great post but i don't agree with liston being a quitter or bully. the ali fight was just an anomaly like hearns-duran.

foreman's boxing skills are underrated but he was indeed very reliant on being a brute and overwhelming his opponents. liston had those qualities but he was also a very good boxer & tactican. it is for the latter reason that i rate liston above foreman. a great tactician will beat a great puncher / brute. foreman was closer to one, liston was closer to both.

i also think that in terms of size the most important detail is the reach and liston is #1 on that. even then taking all things into account the size issue is a close enough to ignore.

i rate liston very highly.
anon1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 12:12 PM   #13
abraq
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: City - Guwahati, State - Assam, Country - India.
Posts: 687
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston or Foreman? Who was better? My breakdown on 11 categories

My take, for whatever it is worth.

Power: Slight but clear edge to Foreman.

Size: Small edge for Foreman, but things would even out somewhat with Listonís great reach.

Skills on Offense: Liston had greater variety, both in punch and feet movement. Foreman was all out attack, except for a brief initial period when he jabbed and sought an opening.

Skills on Defense: Sonny had the better defense. Even considering the second coming of Foreman.

Hand and foot speed: Foreman had better hand speed but Liston had slightly faster feet movement. Maybe because George was loath to give ground.

Quality of competition fought: George.

Chin: Foreman, by a small margin.

Stamina: Liston, clearly.

Heart: Certainly Foreman.

Ring Generalship: Certainly Liston.

Intimidation / Killer instinct: Both dreaded during their respective peaks.

Overall Totals: Sonny 4, George 4 with 3 draws.


abraq is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 01:09 PM   #14
dpw417
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,409
vCash: 168
Default Re: Liston or Foreman? Who was better? My breakdown on 11 categories

Very good post and well thought out analysis...I enjoy your breakdown of the two...
I agree with the breakdown as you stated...While Liston is the technically superior fighter, I like Foreman in this match-up due to the heart he displayed in his post Ali fights...The Ali fight was a circumstance that has never been seen, nor will it again in a world class boxing event...IMAGINE the stress of a huge crowd screaming 'Ali bombaye'...while you were fighting...No one in the history of boxing faced such a daunting experience entering a fight...IMO
I like the way George fought with heart in several of his fights... IMO he has proven himself much more than Sonny Liston in hard fought contests. That gives him a decided edge as far as I'm concerned against the fearsome, technically better Liston.
dpw417 is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 03:07 PM   #15
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 22,374
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Liston or Foreman? Who was better? My breakdown on 11 categories

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Liston or Foreman?

I have seen dozens of threads on who was the better. As a fan of both who has seen both of them on at least 10 different occasions here is my break down on 11 separate categories.

Power: Both Liston and Foreman rank among the hardest hitters ever. Liston’s could hurt you with his jab alone. His right cross was fierce, his left hook could knock down a wall, and his uppercut was a fishing type of blow as well. Liston hit the heavy bag harder than anyone I saw on film. Foreman much like Liston had a heavy jab, a thunderous cross, a booming hook, and a head snapping type of uppercut. Liston punched more form the shoulders, Foreman got more leverage in his hips and legs. Both Foreman and Liston could hammer the body too. There is little difference between the two. Call it a draw.

Size: Defined as a full-blown tale of the tape. Liston was not very tall, but he certainly had some super heavyweight like dimensions. Among them were an 80+-inch reach, 15” fists, big legs, big arms wide shoulders, and a thick neck. Foreman was taller, slightly heavier, and slightly more muscled, but he had less reach. I give Foreman a slight edge here.

Skills on Offense: Liston was a rare technical type of fighter with his four basic punches. Liston could excel at either in-fighting or out fighting. Some feel Liston had the best jab among heavyweights. I disagree a bit but it’s certainly arguable. Liston was perhaps the most complete offensive heavyweight of all time. He could box, brawl or slug at arms length, mid-distance or close distance, and land any punch with good technique. Wow. Liston could also combo off his jab a bit. Foreman was more of a bar room brawler who did not rely much on technique. In fact he did not even care if he had technique or not. As far as Foreman was concerned it was the other person needed technique. Foreman came for the school of Rocky Marciano and tried to KO his man with just about every punch he threw. Foreman could miss badly, or be countered. Big edge to Liston on skills.


Skills on Defense: Defined as the ability make the other guy miss, punch anticipation, clinching, block shots with the gloves, base guard stance, use of footwork to get out of the way, and covering up. Liston had a classic high guard, and those huge fists made it even harder to land something solid on. Liston also had quality head movement, which is rare among heavyweights. Sonny did not have to block or clinch much, so he did not develop these type of skills. Foreman defense was mostly his offense. Foreman wanted to land and put pressure on the other guy. His guard geared towards offense, and he did not move his head much. Clinching for Foreman was reserved for pushing the other fighter backwards! Neither guy had top punch anticipation. Liston could make the other guy miss and get out of the way at times. Advantage to Liston.


Hand and foot speed: If Liston had a weakness it was average hand speed. I think Foreman, who was by no means fast handed, might have a small edge on Liston hand speed. Both Liston and Foreman had relatively quick feet for big guys, and could cut off the ring on smaller boxers. I do think Foreman was just a tad more dynamic overall, so give him the slightest edge here.


Quality of competition fought: Liston resume outside of Ali is a bit thin by the standards of all time greats, with Patterson, Machen Folley, and Williams being his best opponents. Foreman fought a who’s who of the 60’s and 70’s. Fraizer, Norton, Chavalo, Lyle, Young, etc… I am focusing on both fighters in their primes, but Foreman also fought top opposition in the 1990’s as well. Big edge to Foreman.


Chin: Both fighters had top chins. Liston did not face as many punchers or get hit with as many bombs as Foreman did, so his chin is a bit more untested. I do think Liston could be hurt a tad easier than Foreman, who was only stopped once in his long ring career. Foreman’s stoppage loss was stamina related than anything else. Advantage to Foreman.

Stamina: Liston had excellent stamina, and could fight a hard 12 rounds with plenty left in the tank. Liston never had to go 15 rounds, but based on how he looked vs Machen in the 12 round match, I think Liston was a true 15 round fighter. Foreman main weakness was suspect stamina in the mid to later rounds. Part of this was poor punch management by Foreman. Later in his career, Foreman wise up a bit and was more judicious with his reserves. Advantage to Liston.


Heart: Liston deep down was a bully, a thug and a quitter. The thing is very few fighters could last long enough to test these intangibles. When things did not go Sonny’s way, he often fouled. Liston quit vs Ali, and likely took a dive in the other fight. In other fights he was accused of putting a burning like liquid substance on his gloves. Foreman’s fighting heart seemed to be very good, except in the Ali match where I think he mentally packed it in, and in the Young match were Foreman was concerned about gassing late. Edge to Foreman.

Ring Generalship: Liston knew what the other guy had, and did not have. Liston was a rare fighter who matched up well vs punchers, swamers and boxers. Liston never punched himself out, or was out thought in the ring. In general he fought the right type of fight. Foreman’s ring generalship was questionable. It cost him vs Ali. If Foreman would have simply 1-2’d Ali on the ropes, then backed off and collected his breath, he would have forced Ali to change things up. Forman should have clinched more often when he was tired, but did not. Foreman never took rounds off to catch a second wind either. Advantage to Liston.

Intimidation / Killer instinct: Oh Boy. Foreman was so big and strong many thought he was un-beatable. Big punchers with tough chins who go all out are always highly feared. Intimidation was a big weapon of Foreman, and once he had you hurt, that was it. But deep down, I think Foreman was a somewhat fearful guy. Liston was a street thug. A man who has in many fights in and out of the ring with other citizens and the cops. Liston was also a mob enforcer. It is safe to say Liston went though some real life and death situations in and out of prison. You just can’t replicate that without experiencing it. Liston pioneered the start down as a weapon, and seemed to scare his opponents stiff to the point where one got the feeling the match might end right after the stare down. Even Ali was scared of Liston. Small edge to Liston.


Tally:
Liston:5
Foreman: 5
Draw : 1
A prettgood analysis ,but I have one big problem with it,yoi talk about ring generalship,well ,both were pretty poor in this imo,Liston was no doubt the better boxer,but he had one glaring deficiency which you did not mention or adress,he never cut off the ring,Sonny fought in the Chicago style two step and throw the jab mode ,if you used the ring ,he followed you around Big George cut off the ring rather well,he was allways in front of you ,walking you down,both were virtually flatfooted,Liston the slower afoot imo,but it was his lack of geometry in fights against boxers that isfundamental difference between them.Against Patterson Sonny looked a million ndollars because Floyd stood square on two him in his crouch ,making no attempt to be elusive,then again Floyd had fast hands but not fast feet,Machen showed well against liston because he didnt let Sonny get set to throw his bombs off the jab,plus Listons jab was sometimes counter productive,being so heavy it pushed a man back away from the follow up hook,you can see Sonny ,even with his telescopic reach,reaching with his left in some fights,thats my take on it any way.It,s surprising how many world class fighters can,t cutoff a ring, I have a video of fights ,including the Liston Ali 1 one ,there is a apnel discussing them Archie Moore is on it with Angelo Dundee,Moore said Sonny had so many early kos ,he didnt learn to narrow down the angles to trap a man.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013