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Old 02-22-2008, 04:35 PM   #31
mattdonnellon
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Default Re: Klitschko vs Irbagimov for the lineal title?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
As I remember it, no one put it that he was not the champion. Many commentaters did say he was a cheese champion, though. By the end of 1957, Machen had a perfect record and had ko'd Jackson as decisively as Patterson, had also ko'd Valdes who had stopped Jackson, had beaten Baker, and had also beaten Maxim twice, who held a decision over Patterson. Many, and perhaps a majority, judged Machen better than Patterson.
Now this would not matter if Patterson won the title by beating the reigning lineal champion, but as is it did retroactively devalue his claim when he did not defend against Machen.
I think we are in full agreement actually, but some posters are casting doubt on Patterson's right to be considered a linear champion in 1956, my point is you cannot accept a guy as the linear champion and then change your mind. You can feel he is not THE DESERVING CHAMPION BUT HE REMAINS THE LINEAR CHAMPION until he is defeated or retires. Think Briggs or Leon Spinks-a linear title holder can sometimes be a big problem and not the Messiah.
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Old 02-24-2008, 08:41 AM   #32
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Default Re: Klitschko vs Irbagimov for the lineal title?

Well, he did dominate Sultan.
Any more thoughts on this?
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:01 AM   #33
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Default Re: Klitschko vs Irbagimov for the lineal title?

If Vitali was still WBC champ would Mendoza be claiming Wlad was lineal? Ofcourse not. Vitali clearly wasnt lineal but Mendoza claims he was.If this is the case the top3 when Vitali retired were Wlad, Ruiz, Rahman, Byrd, Peter. 2 of those got beat by Chagaev and Maskeev. Vitali may be coming back, then what?

Wlad is clearly the best but currently Maskeev and Chagaev have a claim to being number 1. If Peter beats Maskeev and Chagaev loses to say Ibragimov then Wlad is lineal by default but currently hes not.
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:20 AM   #34
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Default Re: Klitschko vs Irbagimov for the lineal title?

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Originally Posted by DamonD
Well, he did dominate Sultan.
Any more thoughts on this?
While I am not sold on Wlad's claim to lineage I do think that he is far enough ahead of the rest of the field to render their title claims ridiculous.

It is verry obvious who the best heavyweight in the world is right now.

Unfortunately Wlad has two mandatory title defences coming up so he will not be able to meet another belt holder this year unless he drops one of his titles.
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:30 AM   #35
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Default Re: Klitschko vs Irbagimov for the lineal title?

This is one of those foggy periods in history, but certainly Wlad's claim to being recognized as the new established linear champion is growing stronger with every fight and is given a big shot in the arm with his unifying two of the sanctioning bodies' belts. If he beats the Maskaev/Peter winner, I believe universal recognition of him as the linear champion will be undeniably merited.
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:41 AM   #36
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Default Re: Klitschko vs Irbagimov for the lineal title?

I think Lewis needs to come back.
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Old 02-25-2008, 02:06 AM   #37
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Default Re: Klitschko vs Irbagimov for the lineal title?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DamonD
Well, he did dominate Sultan.
Any more thoughts on this?
Yes - pathetic.

On one hand we have a paper tiger (Sultan) who had NO clue as to how to close the distance and threw harmless right hands in Wlad's general direction, and another fighter (Wlad) who absolutely will NOT take even the slightest risk, for fear of exposing that china chin.

Technically, Wlad put on a clinic, but sometimes the sport of boxing must overcome the science of boxing. People need to be entertained. I think even Chris Byrd took more risks than Wlad does.

If this is how he fights against a mediocre fighter like Igbragimov, can you imagine how he'd "fight" in some of our hypothetical matchups here? He'd run like a scalded cat any time someone like Foreman or Tyson came near him.
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Old 02-25-2008, 02:17 AM   #38
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Default Re: Klitschko vs Irbagimov for the lineal title?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
Yes - pathetic.

On one hand we have a paper tiger (Sultan) who had NO clue as to how to close the distance and threw harmless right hands in Wlad's general direction, and another fighter (Wlad) who absolutely will NOT take even the slightest risk, for fear of exposing that china chin.

Technically, Wlad put on a clinic, but sometimes the sport of boxing must overcome the science of boxing. People need to be entertained. I think even Chris Byrd took more risks than Wlad does.

If this is how he fights against a mediocre fighter like Igbragimov, can you imagine how he'd "fight" in some of our hypothetical matchups here? He'd run like a scalded cat any time someone like Foreman or Tyson came near him.
So, let me get this straight, Wlad isn't an ATG at this point in time and doesn't belong in this section? Is that what you are saying?

Last edited by lawton; 03-02-2007 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 02-25-2008, 02:30 AM   #39
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Default Re: Klitschko vs Irbagimov for the lineal title?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoccoMarciano
So, let me get this straight, Wlad isn't an ATG at this point in time and doesn't belong in this section? Is that what you are saying?
What I'm saying is what I said.

Wlad an ATG? I think he has to do much more than what he has so far.
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Old 02-25-2008, 02:47 AM   #40
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Default Re: Klitschko vs Irbagimov for the lineal title?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
I think he has to do much more than what he has so far.
I tend to agree.
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:31 AM   #41
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Default Re: Klitschko vs Irbagimov for the lineal title?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
If Vitali was still WBC champ would Mendoza be claiming Wlad was lineal? Ofcourse not. Vitali clearly wasnt lineal but Mendoza claims he was.If this is the case the top3 when Vitali retired were Wlad, Ruiz, Rahman, Byrd, Peter. 2 of those got beat by Chagaev and Maskeev. Vitali may be coming back, then what?

Wlad is clearly the best but currently Maskeev and Chagaev have a claim to being number 1. If Peter beats Maskeev and Chagaev loses to say Ibragimov then Wlad is lineal by default but currently hes not.
You said IF, Vitlai was still WBC champ. Vitali is not still WBC champ. He has not fought in years. Hence, the lineal title is vacant.

Vitlai was Ring Magazine champion, and some also saw him as lineal champion when he was active. That was 2004. This is 2008. Wlad has won a title unification match, and has beaten many contenders. If Peter beats Maskeav, Wlad will have a win over one of the other champions.

IMO, Wlad should be lineal / linear by using history of other fighters who became lineal without beating the former linear champion.
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:38 AM   #42
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Default Re: Klitschko vs Irbagimov for the lineal title?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
What I'm saying is what I said.

Wlad an ATG? I think he has to do much more than what he has so far.
More such as what? The context of what an all time great is not a set definition. The best way to do it is to comapre and contrast to the field.

Here is an older article I wrote a while back, before Wlad unifiyed a belt. Comment on this after reading it.

Who are the top all time 30 heavyweights? You can pick
your own. I'll list 30. Odds are we have matches on at
least 20 names, and likely 25 names. I'm not here to
debate any order, moreover just agree to a general
consensus on the names.

M. Ali,L. Holmes,J. Jeffries,J. Louis,S. Liston,G.
Foreman,L Lewis,J. Dempsey,R. Marciano,R. Bowe,E.
Holyfield,M. Tyson,J. Frazier,J. Johnson,V.
Klitschko,G. Tunney,K. Norton,S. Langford,B.
Fitzsimmons,J. Corbett,P. Jackson,H Wills,E. Charles,J
Walcott, F. Patterson,M Schmeling,J.L. Sullivan,T.
Witherspoon, and I.Ibeabuchi

Now that we have the names out of the way, I'll get to
my point. Is Wladimir Klitschko on his way to getting
on this list? Let's examine.

Current Winning percentage: 94.23%. 6th best of the
listed 30 fighters. Only Marciano, Tunney, Louis,
Ibeabuchi, and Bowe have higher winning percentages.

KO Percentage:84.61% 3rd best of the listed 30
fighters. Only Marciano and Vitlay Kltishcko are
higher. It is possible for Wlad to pass them both.

Heavyweight title bout record ( Alphabets included )
9-2. At the top of the list in terms of total wins and
percentage of wins. Some may roll their eyes at
counting alphabet title defenses. Coutner point. Is a
guy like Brock any worse than say half of Louis,
Ali's, Frazier, or Holmes title opponents? I think
not!

Amount of times KO'd. 3 times. Only 13 of the 30
fighters have been Ko'd less. Many traditionally
higher rated fighters were Ko'd more often, and in my
opinion by lesser punchers.

Size: Few were bigger

Hand Speed: Few had faster hands

Skills: Few had a better skills on offense or defense.

Power: Few hit harder.

Less bums: Wlad fought very few fighters with losing
records

All over 200 pounds: Wlad has always fought
heavyweights.

No color or geographical line: Wlad has never used the
color line and has fought the best fighters from all
over the world.

Is Wlad on his way to making a top 30 all time list? I
think so!

The Brewster win puts Wlad in the top 20 for now. Wlad
is in his prime. A time when physical skills,
experience, and confidence are all at high levels. I
can't see more popular fighters like Charels, Walcott,
Patterson, or Schemling getting the better of Wlad in
a 3 fight series.
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:27 AM   #43
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Default Re: Klitschko vs Irbagimov for the lineal title?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
More such as what? The context of what an all time great is not a set definition. The best way to do it is to comapre and contrast to the field.

Here is an older article I wrote a while back, before Wlad unifiyed a belt. Comment on this after reading it.

Who are the top all time 30 heavyweights? You can pick
your own. I'll list 30. Odds are we have matches on at
least 20 names, and likely 25 names. I'm not here to
debate any order, moreover just agree to a general
consensus on the names.

M. Ali,L. Holmes,J. Jeffries,J. Louis,S. Liston,G.
Foreman,L Lewis,J. Dempsey,R. Marciano,R. Bowe,E.
Holyfield,M. Tyson,J. Frazier,J. Johnson,V.
Klitschko,G. Tunney,K. Norton,S. Langford,B.
Fitzsimmons,J. Corbett,P. Jackson,H Wills,E. Charles,J
Walcott, F. Patterson,M Schmeling,J.L. Sullivan,T.
Witherspoon, and I.Ibeabuchi

Now that we have the names out of the way, I'll get to
my point. Is Wladimir Klitschko on his way to getting
on this list? Let's examine.

Current Winning percentage: 94.23%. 6th best of the
listed 30 fighters. Only Marciano, Tunney, Louis,
Ibeabuchi, and Bowe have higher winning percentages.

KO Percentage:84.61% 3rd best of the listed 30
fighters. Only Marciano and Vitlay Kltishcko are
higher. It is possible for Wlad to pass them both.

Heavyweight title bout record ( Alphabets included )
9-2. At the top of the list in terms of total wins and
percentage of wins. Some may roll their eyes at
counting alphabet title defenses. Coutner point. Is a
guy like Brock any worse than say half of Louis,
Ali's, Frazier, or Holmes title opponents? I think
not!

Amount of times KO'd. 3 times. Only 13 of the 30
fighters have been Ko'd less. Many traditionally
higher rated fighters were Ko'd more often, and in my
opinion by lesser punchers.

Size: Few were bigger

Hand Speed: Few had faster hands

Skills: Few had a better skills on offense or defense.

Power: Few hit harder.

Less bums: Wlad fought very few fighters with losing
records

All over 200 pounds: Wlad has always fought
heavyweights.

No color or geographical line: Wlad has never used the
color line and has fought the best fighters from all
over the world.

Is Wlad on his way to making a top 30 all time list? I
think so!

The Brewster win puts Wlad in the top 20 for now. Wlad
is in his prime. A time when physical skills,
experience, and confidence are all at high levels. I
can't see more popular fighters like Charels, Walcott,
Patterson, or Schemling getting the better of Wlad in
a 3 fight series.
How can he be at the top of the list for title fight wins with a 9-2 alphabet record?

Id agree with you though that he is verging on the top 30 but i dont think the win over Brewster did anything at all to boost him up the ratings and neither did saturdays fight.
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:29 AM   #44
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Default Re: Klitschko vs Irbagimov for the lineal title?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
You said IF, Vitlai was still WBC champ. Vitali is not still WBC champ. He has not fought in years. Hence, the lineal title is vacant.

Vitlai was Ring Magazine champion, and some also saw him as lineal champion when he was active. That was 2004. This is 2008. Wlad has won a title unification match, and has beaten many contenders. If Peter beats Maskeav, Wlad will have a win over one of the other champions.

IMO, Wlad should be lineal / linear by using history of other fighters who became lineal without beating the former linear champion.
Vitali`s title lineage went to Rahman then Maskaev, the winner of the fight with Peter will have a solid claim and by fighting the returning vitali the winner will cement their lineal status and have a higher claim than Wlad despite his alphabet collection.
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:37 AM   #45
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Default Re: Klitschko vs Irbagimov for the lineal title?

Mendoza - it's all fine and well listing statistics, but if used in the right way, stats can prove just about anything.
You say Wlad has only been KO'd 3 times. Fair enough, but 3 times by competent but hardly oustanding fighters.

One aspect of 'greatness' that I place a lot of emphasis on is what that fighter meant to his era. Does Wlad define his era the way Ali, Louis, Dempsey, Marciano...heck, even Tyson did? I'd say no.

What I'm getting at is this: Wlad has got some great assets, no-one can deny that. But his era is weak - one of the weakest it must be said - and to be remembered as anything other than a highly competent fighter in 40 years he's going to have to do what Louis did, and that's completely dominate it.
So far he's doing that, but he's got a way to go yet.

H2H? I'd bet on him more often than not. But in 30 years, who knows? It's one reason I'm not enthusiastic about H2H. The moderns have all (or most of) the advantages.
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