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Old 02-21-2008, 03:16 PM   #16
joe33
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - a cheeky statement lies herein.

Bruno may have froze a number of times,but at least he never ever took a dive so bad it fooled everyone to this day as to was it faked or not
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Old 02-21-2008, 08:46 PM   #17
Russell
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - a cheeky statement lies herein.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Liston was a natural fighter who knew what his oponent would do before they did it. Bruno had to let them do it and then think about how to react to it.

Liston was prety good at everything really. Inside, outside, offense, defense. Bruno had technical gaps an elephant could wander through.

Liston was a superb ring general while Bruno had the tools but seldom deployed them well.

That is before we even get onto issues like chin stamina etc.
And in Bruno's defense I don't think many would say that Liston had more single shot power than Frank.

He was an absolute monster, in that regard.
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Old 02-22-2008, 02:58 AM   #18
Seamus
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - a cheeky statement lies herein.

Liston was a great, perhaps evena top ten heavyweight great, with skill, power and physical assets.

Bruno was a bodybuilder who dabbled somewhat successfully in the ranks of heavyweight boxers.
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Old 02-22-2008, 04:19 AM   #19
fists of fury
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - a cheeky statement lies herein.

Is Bruno being sold a little short here? Here are two clips, one of Liston vs. Patterson, the other is Frank vs. Gerrie Coetzee.
Unfortunately there is not a wealth of footage of either fighter on youtube, but here we can compare basic assets.

Sonny:
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Frank:
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Sonny has the better hook, no doubt about it. Bruno though, has the better right hand, at least to me.
Jabs? Liston's jab goes down in history as one of the best, but note the triple jab Bruno throws in the Coetzee fight. He too had an excellent jab. Is Sonny's really so much better, if at all?
Bruno also appears to be the faster fighter.

Let's look at Liston's record for a second.

He is often given a lot of credit for fighting on with a broken jaw against Marty Marshall. Fair enough, but the jaw was allegedly broken in the 4th, so that means Liston had to go four more rounds with a broken jaw.
Does that really compare with say, Ali, who went 10 rounds with a broken jaw?

Marshall also lost to most of the big names during the period, and had been knocked out four times before facing Liston, as well as dropping two decisions (one to Harold Johnson) immediately prior to the Liston fight. Marshall was also not a big man, never scaling more than 186 lbs in his career.
After the second Liston fight, Marshall lost 5 of his remaining 7 fights. Was Marshall washed up by the time he faced Liston again?

The next name of any real note on the Liston ledger is Mike DeJohn, who fought and lost to most big names of the period, including Liston, Nino Valdes (twice) Eddie Machen (twice) Zora Foley and in his last fight, George Chuvalo. Obviously DeJohn was no bum, but he lost in all his big fights.

Next up, Cleveland Williams, one of Liston's most celebrated opponents. Certainly, he could hit. But Cleve too, lost most (if not all) his big fights. The only name prior to Liston he faced was Bob Satterfield, who flattened Cleve in 3 rounds.
Liston knocked him out twice so credit is due, but is it all that fantastic an achievement? Williams beat Terrell, lost to the same man, and drew with Eddie Machen. A few years later Ali flattened him, as did Mac Foster. The best fighter Williams ever beat was Terrell. Why does Cleve get so much respect in boxing circles, such being the case?

Nino Valdes is next. The man many thought might give Marciano a tough fight. Problem is, Valdes was long since washed up by the time he faced Liston.

Roy Harris is the next notable name, but Harris was a pretty much protected fighter. Nvertheless, he did beat (the much smaller) Willie Pastrano, BoB Baker and went 13 rounds with Floyd Patterson. Considering it only went a round, it can be regarded as a good win for Liston.

The Zora Folley win was another good performance from Liston.

Eddie Machen was another above-average talent, but he was nothing special. One has to wonder how Sonny could only beat him on points, when Ingemar Johansson flattened him inside a round a few years before. Machen too lost to most the names of the period, such as Folley, Liston, Patterson, Mildenberger etc. His most notable victory was probably over Jerry Quarry.

Albert Westphal only gets mentoned here because his knockout at the hands of Liston is frequently on highlight reels. But hang on, who the hell was Albert Westphal? And why was he only 5'7"??

Next, Patterson, who was so hugely intimidated it's a wonder he showed up at all. Well, he did bring a disguise with him for the first fight, so that speaks volumes about his state of mind.
Funny, Mike Tyson is often slated for fighting intimidated opponents, but when Liston does it, it's considered a plus for Sonny, because y'know, he was just so big and bad and scary. Odd that.

The two Ali stinkers are next.
Liston folded like a house of cards in the first fight, and quit after it dawned on him he had barely laid a glove on Ali for 7 rounds.

The "fight" in Maine, is largely considered a fix, but says who? There has never been anything but the flimsiest circumstantial evidence that there was a fix.
My personal theory is that Liston quit. He did a Buster Douglas and took the money and lay down, thank you very much.

Unfortunately, I have to end it there for now...
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Old 02-25-2008, 09:36 AM   #20
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - a cheeky statement lies herein.

I think Floyd Patterson beats Frank Bruno.
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:32 AM   #21
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - a cheeky statement lies herein.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
I think Floyd Patterson beats Frank Bruno.
I agree.
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