Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-21-2008, 01:57 PM   #1
guilalah
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 944
vCash: 1000
Default Jeffries vs. Finnegan

In another post I said that I'd read Jeffries-Finnegan wasn't intended to be a defense, but that Finnegan's manngement insisted, on the day of the fight, that the title be on line. I thought I read this in Kelly Nicholson's 'A Man Among Men' (2002).

However, I re-read the relevent passage in Nicholson (p. 76), and he doesn't say exactly this. (I still think I did read the above story somewhere, but I'm not sure where).

What Nicholson does say is, while Jeffries was taking hot baths in West Baden, Ind., Brady signed Jeffries to meet Finnegan about five weeks before the Corbett fight was to be held. On the night of the fight Finnegans manager brought him undersized gloves. Jeffries offered to supply regular sized gloves; then offered to fight with spar gloves while Finnegan used the small gloves. Finally Jeffries agreed to wear the small gloves, but warned that it would be a short fight.

Nicholson also footnotes (also on p.76) that there is some issue as to whether or not the belt was on the line.

--------

I bring this up because, of late, Jeffries has been taking heat for the Finnegan and Munroe defenses. I think there's some legitimacy in criticizing the Munroe defense.
Regarding Finnegan, it's not clear whether this was a title defense. It is clear that, even if the belt was on the line, Jeffries had already commited to fight Corbett in a bit over a month:he wasn't fighting Finnegan to avoid competition -- he'd already signed to meet that competition. (He had also already defended against highly regarded Sharkey).
From 1899 thru 1903 Jeffries fought Sharkey, Corbett (2x), Fitzsimmons and Ruhlin. That's hardly taking it easy. (If Cobett turned out to be, in the second fight, old and rusted, Jeffries still must be commended for giving a second chance to a fighter who had troubled him the first time around -- put it this way, if Jeffries hadn't ever fought Corbett again, we'd surely be criticizing him for that, too).
It does seem to me that, from 1899 thru 1903, Jeffries largely fought the best available. (Maybe, toward the end, Denver Martin or Johnson could have been included among top contenders).

Does anyone have any information whether Jeffries-Finnegan definitely was intended by Jeffries to be a title bout?; or whether it was announced as a title bout?

Hopefully apollack's tome will clarify this, as far as is possible.
guilalah is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 02-21-2008, 02:05 PM   #2
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,317
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jeffries vs. Finnegan

Yeah. The fight was covered by some Newspapers. I read a review in the Milwaukee press, which incidentally had some excellent boxing coverage in those days. The way I see it, if Finnegan somehow scored a KO, he is the winner.

I tend to beleive that Jeffries vs Kennedy might have been a real fight.
Almanac’s and boxing cards list the Kennedy fight as one of Jeffries most important wins.

I posted this a while back. Here is a boxing card in 1910.


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 02:16 PM   #3
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,334
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jeffries vs. Finnegan

In this period and for some time after, exhibitions involving the champion somtimes got upgraded to title fights to satisfy the local state athletic comision. This could result in a champion defending their title against a no namer who was several leagues beneath their typical title oponent. Joe Louis's title defence against Davis is a classic case of this. I suspect that there is a similar story behind Jeffries Finegan.

Where this is the case I dont hold it against the champion. He thinks he is fighting an exhibition and is forced at the last minute to either put his title on the line or cancel. With tickets already sold it might be easiest just to brutalize the no hoper.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 03:21 PM   #4
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 22,389
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jeffries vs. Finnegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by guilalah
In another post I said that I'd read Jeffries-Finnegan wasn't intended to be a defense, but that Finnegan's manngement insisted, on the day of the fight, that the title be on line. I thought I read this in Kelly Nicholson's 'A Man Among Men' (2002).

However, I re-read the relevent passage in Nicholson (p. 76), and he doesn't say exactly this. (I still think I did read the above story somewhere, but I'm not sure where).

What Nicholson does say is, while Jeffries was taking hot baths in West Baden, Ind., Brady signed Jeffries to meet Finnegan about five weeks before the Corbett fight was to be held. On the night of the fight Finnegans manager brought him undersized gloves. Jeffries offered to supply regular sized gloves; then offered to fight with spar gloves while Finnegan used the small gloves. Finally Jeffries agreed to wear the small gloves, but warned that it would be a short fight.

Nicholson also footnotes (also on p.76) that there is some issue as to whether or not the belt was on the line.

--------

I bring this up because, of late, Jeffries has been taking heat for the Finnegan and Munroe defenses. I think there's some legitimacy in criticizing the Munroe defense.
Regarding Finnegan, it's not clear whether this was a title defense. It is clear that, even if the belt was on the line, Jeffries had already commited to fight Corbett in a bit over a month:he wasn't fighting Finnegan to avoid competition -- he'd already signed to meet that competition. (He had also already defended against highly regarded Sharkey).
From 1899 thru 1903 Jeffries fought Sharkey, Corbett (2x), Fitzsimmons and Ruhlin. That's hardly taking it easy. (If Cobett turned out to be, in the second fight, old and rusted, Jeffries still must be commended for giving a second chance to a fighter who had troubled him the first time around -- put it this way, if Jeffries hadn't ever fought Corbett again, we'd surely be criticizing him for that, too).
It does seem to me that, from 1899 thru 1903, Jeffries largely fought the best available. (Maybe, toward the end, Denver Martin or Johnson could have been included among top contenders).

Does anyone have any information whether Jeffries-Finnegan definitely was intended by Jeffries to be a title bout?; or whether it was announced as a title bout?

Hopefully apollack's tome will clarify this, as far as is possible.
Jeffries is to be commended for giving Corbett a rematch,but its a pity it took him nearly three and a half years to do so.The Finnegan"affair" was pretty dire with the challenger ,if he can be called that going down twice ,and rising crying,before he was rescued ,if Jeffries was uncomfortable meeting such a pathetic foe ,why didnt he just say nothing doing?
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2008, 06:09 PM   #5
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,334
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jeffries vs. Finnegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
The Finnegan"affair" was pretty dire with the challenger ,if he can be called that going down twice ,and rising crying,before he was rescued
King Levinsky put up a similar performence against Joe Louis and he was ranked at the time.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2008, 04:55 AM   #6
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 22,389
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jeffries vs. Finnegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
King Levinsky put up a similar performence against Joe Louis and he was ranked at the time.
The point is he was a ranked fighter,as you say so a creditable opponent.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2008, 08:31 AM   #7
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,317
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jeffries vs. Finnegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
Jeffries is to be commended for giving Corbett a rematch,but its a pity it took him nearly three and a half years to do so.The Finnegan"affair" was pretty dire with the challenger ,if he can be called that going down twice ,and rising crying,before he was rescued ,if Jeffries was uncomfortable meeting such a pathetic foe ,why didnt he just say nothing doing?
A few things here. Regarding Corbett after he beat McCoy focused on being a stage actor. Corbett's manager, William Brady ( also Jeffries manager ) was heavily connected in the theatric world. To say the egotistical Corbett loved the stage, ladies, and the camera is an understatement.

At any rate, Brady was busy making money for Jeffries, and keeping Corbett on stage. There was a bitter split between some of Jeffries training people as they were in Corbett's corner for the 1903 fight.

I think Brady being the power broker had other plans in mind for Jeffries. IMO, Fitzsimmons should have been in line to re-match Jeffires before Corbett based on Fitz being active and smashing contenders on his climb back to the top. Ruhlin was more active than Corbett was too. So in hindsight, both Fitz and Ruhlin deserved re-matches before Corbett. If Corbett wanted to fight Jeffires before 1903, he should have been active in 1901 and 1902 vs a ranked guy, but he wasn’t, while Fitz and Ruhlin were.

As for the Finnegan fight, Brady likely had Jeffries in many un-documented fights when Jeffries was champion in the USA and in Europe. The ball is in Appolack's court to find the who's, where's and when's of un-documented or " reported " matches.

While Finnegan ( I'll asume his box rec record is incompelete ) had no business being in the same ring, Jeffries was already in shape, so Brady and Jeffries might have just taken some quick cash when Finnegan and his manager insisted on the fight.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2008, 10:42 AM   #8
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 22,389
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jeffries vs. Finnegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
A few things here. Regarding Corbett after he beat McCoy focused on being a stage actor. Corbett's manager, William Brady ( also Jeffries manager ) was heavily connected in the theatric world. To say the egotistical Corbett loved the stage, ladies, and the camera is an understatement.

At any rate, Brady was busy making money for Jeffries, and keeping Corbett on stage. There was a bitter split between some of Jeffries training people as they were in Corbett's corner for the 1903 fight.

I think Brady being the power broker had other plans in mind for Jeffries. IMO, Fitzsimmons should have been in line to re-match Jeffires before Corbett based on Fitz being active and smashing contenders on his climb back to the top. Ruhlin was more active than Corbett was too. So in hindsight, both Fitz and Ruhlin deserved re-matches before Corbett. If Corbett wanted to fight Jeffires before 1903, he should have been active in 1901 and 1902 vs a ranked guy, but he wasn’t, while Fitz and Ruhlin were.

As for the Finnegan fight, Brady likely had Jeffries in many un-documented fights when Jeffries was champion in the USA and in Europe. The ball is in Appolack's court to find the who's, where's and when's of un-documented or " reported " matches.

While Finnegan ( I'll asume his box rec record is incompelete ) had no business being in the same ring, Jeffries was already in shape, so Brady and Jeffries might have just taken some quick cash when Finnegan and his manager insisted on the fight.
So if Wladimir Klitschko,3 weeks prior to today decided,"I,m in shape ,lets pick up some loose change and fought ,say either Alexander Ustinov 7 -o with 7 kos,or Earl Ladson ,13-11-1,that would be allright with you?,I mention these guys ,because they are 1 on the undercard and 2 both have far better credentials than Finnegan.,do you see my point ? A Champion like Jeffries ,and I class him as a great one ,better than Wladimir,has no business belting out stiffs,end of story.Many challengers ,for varied reasons have put up less than stellar performances ,some have frozen eg Max Baer ,Levinsky ,Paychek,and to some extent Nova ,against Louis ,Seldon against Tyson,but they all had decent credentials,enough to justify them being in there.If Jeffries had offered Corbett a rematch earlier than he did ,do you think Corbett would have said "no Im concentrating on my stage career,lets wait until I,m three years older before I come back"?
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2008, 11:00 AM   #9
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,317
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jeffries vs. Finnegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
So if Wladimir Klitschko,3 weeks prior to today decided,"I,m in shape ,lets pick up some loose change and fought ,say either Alexander Ustinov 7 -o with 7 kos,or Earl Ladson ,13-11-1,that would be allright with you?,I mention these guys ,because they are 1 on the undercard and 2 both have far better credentials than Finnegan.,do you see my point ? A Champion like Jeffries ,and I class him as a great one ,better than Wladimir,has no business belting out stiffs,end of story.Many challengers ,for varied reasons have put up less than stellar performances ,some have frozen eg Max Baer ,Levinsky ,Paychek,and to some extent Nova ,against Louis ,Seldon against Tyson,but they all had decent credentials,enough to justify them being in there.If Jeffries had offered Corbett a rematch earlier than he did ,do you think Corbett would have said "no Im concentrating on my stage career,lets wait until I,m three years older before I come back"?
These were different times when champions sometimes squeezed in lesser guys for fights. My best guess is Finnegan got under Jeffries skin, and there was some quick cash to be made. Jeffries said Ok, here is your shot, then used Finnegan as a warm up fight.

An example of a warm up fight would be Jack Johnson giving Kaufmann a fight, then facing Kethcel a month later in a big money fight.

Or how about Dempsey fighting Jim Darcy a month after he beat Carpientier.

Or Joe Louis fighting Harry Thomas two months before his huge re-match with Schmeling.

And the beat goes on for dozens of other fighters. See my point?

This type of stuff can not be done today due to alphabet politcs and mandatories. Wlad can't take a quick warm up fight. Back then the champ picked his oppoent, and there was only one belt.

Since both Fitzsimmons and Ruhlin fought Jeffries before Corbett and were more active than Corbett was post 1900, I definitely think they were in line for re-matches first.

I get the sense you are still bitter about an older thread. In general, Jeffries has the least amount of trial horses and journeyman on his record of all the top champions. Less than Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Frazier, Ali, Holmes, et al. I'll stand behind that statement.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2008, 11:09 AM   #10
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 22,389
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jeffries vs. Finnegan

I,m not bitter about anything I didn,t start this post ,but when Munroe and Finnegans names were put in the hat I tried to add some perspective about them,I quite agree that other Champions shouldnt have fought stiffs,but they weren,t the subject of the post ,Jeffries was.I think we both hope Appolack get s that book out soon!Ps I don,t disagree with you for the sake of it ,if I think your'e right ,I will say so.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2008, 02:26 PM   #11
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,334
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jeffries vs. Finnegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
I,m not bitter about anything I didn,t start this post ,but when Munroe and Finnegans names were put in the hat I tried to add some perspective about them,
I find it strange that you group them together.

There is probably a bigger qualatative gulf between Munroe and Finegan than there is between Rhulin and Munroe.

Last edited by Rebel; 02-26-2007 at 07:10 PM.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2008, 02:31 PM   #12
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,334
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jeffries vs. Finnegan

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2008, 03:36 PM   #13
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,317
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jeffries vs. Finnegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I find it strange that you group them together.

There is probably a bigger qualatative gulf between Munroe and Finegan than there is between Rhulin and Munroe.
Agreed. The gap between Munroe and Finnegan was bigger than the difference between Rhulin and Munroe.

Something tells me Jeffries did not want to waste any time with Finnegan. The cotnract was signed to meet him and Corbett was on his mind. Guilalah said Jeffries warned it would be a shot fight.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2008, 03:39 PM   #14
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 22,389
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jeffries vs. Finnegan

Ruhlin was ,when he was on form ,a world class fighter of the time,his problem was his inconsistancy,I see nothing in Munroes record to suggest he was world class,wins over a shot Sharkey and Maher ,don,t persuade me I,m afraid.Ruhlin was several steps above Munroe ,imo.Your news paper clipping of the Finnegan fight shows what a farce it was ,it makes the Tyson Mcneely debacle look good.The man inquestion here isn,t a fill in champ,in Jeffries we are talking about a man many would have in their top 10,an Iron man,not Hart,Braddock or Carnera.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2008, 04:12 PM   #15
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,317
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jeffries vs. Finnegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
Ruhlin was ,when he was on form ,a world class fighter of the time,his problem was his inconsistancy,I see nothing in Munroes record to suggest he was world class,wins over a shot Sharkey and Maher ,don,t persuade me I,m afraid.Ruhlin was several steps above Munroe ,imo.Your news paper clipping of the Finnegan fight shows what a farce it was ,it makes the Tyson Mcneely debacle look good.The man inquestion here isn,t a fill in champ,in Jeffries we are talking about a man many would have in their top 10,an Iron man,not Hart,Braddock or Carnera.
I think Munroe could be viewed as top ten guy by 1904. The ratings were in flux due to some of the best fighters being older or retired. Can you name ten more qualifed fighters who were acitve in 1904? I can't. So the Munroe title match was not that bad.

I think Finnegan did not deserve a shot, and juding by Janitor's news clip, he was not only badly knocked out in 55 seconds, but also hurt. I think Jeffries had a few of these type of fights as champion in the USA and Europe. As long as a champion fights one quality fighter a year, I am ok with some easy fights every now and then.

The fights that interst me more are the Kennedy fight which took palce before a packed house. Not that Kennedy was hot stuff, but he did defeat Ruhlin, and draw with solid fighters in Childs and Griffin. Jeffries Ko'd him hard in two.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013