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Old 02-23-2008, 06:07 AM   #1
Marciano Frazier
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Default Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis, etc.?

Or were they not the punchers that Henry Cooper, Sonny Banks, Jim Braddock, Jimmy Young, Kevin Isaac, Renaldo Snipes, Mike Bruce, Oscar Bonavena, Gene Tunney, Stanley Ketchel (at heavyweight), James Toney, Buster Douglas, etc. were?

Last edited by Marciano Frazier; 02-23-2008 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 02-23-2008, 10:05 AM   #2
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

Marciano-Frazier-----Pardon me for putting this note on this thread, but I think you will read it here. I started a thread asking for definitions of exactly what the definition of a lineal champion is, especially when the old champion retires. I would appreciate your views.
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Old 02-23-2008, 10:19 AM   #3
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis, etc.?

Or were they not the punchers that Henry Cooper, Sonny Banks, Jim Braddock, Jimmy Young, Kevin Isaac, Renaldo Snipes, Mike Bruce, Oscar Bonavena, Gene Tunney, Stanley Ketchel (at heavyweight), James Toney, Buster Douglas, etc. were?




Good thread, yeah, of course they COULD floor them...
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Old 02-23-2008, 11:17 AM   #4
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

J.J.Walcott could drop you with either hand and he was a slick pinpoint puncher with good footwork and movement,he could be eratic at times and he was a late bloomer like Bernard Hopkins and Toney, but Walcott was always fit and I think could upset a few of the ATG's on a given night..I would pick him over Tyson in an upset and he would give Ali and Holmes fits. Look at Moore " the OLD Mongoose" even in his loss to Ali 8 yrs after he fought Marciano and he landed some good ones on Ali before getting stopped but you can only imagine in his prime. I think the Foreman fight would be a tall order for ARCHIE but then again Lyle had Foreman down, bigger but not a harder puncher than Archie. I like Walcott because of his right hand over Holmes, he could proberly DROP Larry before winning a UD and I like his chances to floor Ali (look at his hook vs Charles) I know a lot of the young guys will call this blasphamy but I see it that way. Lewis, Dempsey, would have a lot of trouble with Walcott and Moore could drop anyone if he went on the offensive, I seen Evander hurt vs BurtCooper and dropped by body shots by the 37 year old 5"9 Toney so its not hard for me to invision
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Old 02-23-2008, 11:31 AM   #5
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

Please spare me. Any fighter can knock anyone down. But Ali fought Banks in his 11th fight and he was only 20 against Moore who he battered. Ali was hardly in his prime so stop twisting things around to make Archie look great. He got KO'd in 4 as a young Clay predicted. I was just reading the boxing records of Marciano's first 20 opponents (Ali was champ by then). Shocking.
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Old 02-23-2008, 11:48 AM   #6
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

How can Ali be champ??
By the time Marciano was fighting his first 20 or so foes, which range from 1947-1949 or so??
Not unless Ali was a baby or so When he held the title.
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Old 02-23-2008, 01:09 PM   #7
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey1238
How can Ali be champ??
By the time Marciano was fighting his first 20 or so foes, which range from 1947-1949 or so??
Not unless Ali was a baby or so When he held the title.
He meant # of fights.
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Old 02-23-2008, 01:29 PM   #8
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

In that case, Ali was in a other time in this regard though. In Ali's day, it was getting to be pretty common to get a title fight in 20 someodd fights.
Patterson and Ingo are proof of that.

It took Dempsey 60 some odd fights(Perhaps 80 if we buy the lost fights record) to get his shot at Willard.
Corbett if gone by Dr Z, had 50 bouts before his battle with Fitz.
Johnson had God knows how many before his fights with Burns.
Louis had 30 or so fights. But of couse he was gloom early though.
Tunney had 60 or so bouts before he battle Dempsey.
Compare to these guys, Marciano had a short run with a mere 42 fights.
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Old 02-23-2008, 02:04 PM   #9
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

You have to look at the time-frame, too

Marciano's first pro fight was in 1947, he won the title in 1952.

Ali's first pro fight was in 1960, he fought Liston in 64.

Keeping in mind the actual lengths of time between their start/title-winning dates, Marcianos' was ~5 years, while Ali's was around ~3.5 (he fought Liston early in 1964, while Marciano fought Walcott towards the end of '52).

We must not forget that Clay was an Olympic gold medalist, as well, so he was on the fast track from the get-go.
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Old 02-23-2008, 02:04 PM   #10
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey1238
In that case, Ali was in a other time in this regard though. In Ali's day, it was getting to be pretty common to get a title fight in 20 someodd fights.
Patterson and Ingo are proof of that.

It took Dempsey 60 some odd fights(Perhaps 80 if we buy the lost fights record) to get his shot at Willard.
Corbett if gone by Dr Z, had 50 bouts before his battle with Fitz.
Johnson had God knows how many before his fights with Burns.
Louis had 30 or so fights. But of couse he was gloom early though.
Tunney had 60 or so bouts before he battle Dempsey.
Compare to these guys, Marciano had a short run with a mere 42 fights.
Well Jeffries won it on his 12th fight, Willard had 26, Louis had about 30fights so it was never essential you had a load of fights behind you, the essential thing was fighting top contenders early and getting the shot.

The impressive thing about Ali is he was taking on top contenders when he was still very young before he had anywhere nearly peaked
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Old 02-23-2008, 02:06 PM   #11
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

BTW stupid thread, any fighter can knock another down pretty much BUT the likelyhood of it happening isnt higher because a lesser fighter got lucky. Also why mention past prime performances?
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Old 02-23-2008, 02:32 PM   #12
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by groove
Please spare me. Any fighter can knock anyone down. But Ali fought Banks in his 11th fight
But the Cooper fight presceded his title winning effort against Sonny Liston when he would alegedly have beaten any heavyweight in history.

Quote:
and he was only 20 against Moore who he battered. Ali was hardly in his prime so stop twisting things around to make Archie look great. He got KO'd in 4 as a young Clay predicted.
Ali was clearly much closer to his peak than Moore at this point though I agree it is an under rated win.

Of course if you want to play that game then Harold Johnson did a lot better against Doug Jones than Ali did.

The interactions between fighters from those two periods provide a mixed picture.

Quote:
I was just reading the boxing records of Marciano's first 20 opponents (Ali was champ by then). Shocking.
The crucial diference is That Marciano didnt have anything like the amateur experience that Ali had before turning pro.

Nobody did back then.
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Old 02-23-2008, 02:35 PM   #13
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
BTW stupid thread, any fighter can knock another down pretty much BUT the likelyhood of it happening isnt higher because a lesser fighter got lucky.
I think the point is that Rocky gets a lot of flak for being droped by Walcott and Moore (partly because there is not much else to give him flak for) while in reality most other all time greats were droped by lesser fighters.

The fact that Marciano was never droped untill he fought a world champion makes his chin prety good.
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Old 02-23-2008, 08:15 PM   #14
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I think the point is that Rocky gets a lot of flak for being droped by Walcott and Moore (partly because there is not much else to give him flak for) while in reality most other all time greats were droped by lesser fighters.

The fact that Marciano was never droped untill he fought a world champion makes his chin prety good.
I think his chin is very good but clearly not undestructable. The fact he gets dropped in his prime puts question marks over his defense, which actually is underrated but may still let him down against top10 ATGs.

Plus Marciano getting kd'ed in his prime and most important fights is a little different from a fighter getting clocked in a gimme fight were their mind isnt on the game or getting clocked past prime

The fact hes asking if Walcott could score a KD against Louis is also a little amusing
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Old 02-24-2008, 12:31 AM   #15
Marciano Frazier
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
BTW stupid thread, any fighter can knock another down pretty much BUT the likelyhood of it happening isnt higher because a lesser fighter got lucky. Also why mention past prime performances?
This thread was meant mainly as a retort to Russell's "Could Patterson drop Marciano? Or was he not the puncher Walcott and Moore were?" thread, and the general bit of weak logic which is often thrown around by Marciano's detractors that because Moore and Walcott knocked him down, surely fighter X would finish him off. Nearly every other champion has been knocked down by lesser punchers and/or lesser fighters than Walcott and Moore, and hence that logic could be thrown around virtually any which way one pleased, were it not so often made into a double standard and used only against Marciano.
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