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Old 02-24-2008, 12:32 AM   #16
Marciano Frazier
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Originally Posted by janitor
I think the point is that Rocky gets a lot of flak for being droped by Walcott and Moore (partly because there is not much else to give him flak for) while in reality most other all time greats were droped by lesser fighters.

The fact that Marciano was never droped untill he fought a world champion makes his chin prety good.
Bingo.
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Old 02-24-2008, 12:38 AM   #17
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis, etc.?
Is there a reason you think they couldn't?
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Old 02-24-2008, 12:50 AM   #18
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
I think his chin is very good but clearly not undestructable. The fact he gets dropped in his prime puts question marks over his defense, which actually is underrated but may still let him down against top10 ATGs.

Plus Marciano getting kd'ed in his prime and most important fights is a little different from a fighter getting clocked in a gimme fight were their mind isnt on the game or getting clocked past prime
Only a few of the examples I used were from fights where the champion could be reasonably considered to have been significantly outside his prime. I think you'll agree Holmes was in his prime when Snipes, a fringe contender with an unimpressive knockout percentage who never stopped a top fighter, had him on the floor and staggering down queer street. Ali was in his prime the fight before he won the title when he was floored hard and hurt badly enough that Dundee saw fit to try and cheat to buy him time against an average contender with an unimpressive knockout percentage who never stopped a top fighter in Cooper (who, by the way, for those overly fixated on size, was smaller than Walcott and the same size as Moore). I think you should agree that they were both hurt plenty worse than Marciano was against Walcott or Moore.
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The fact hes asking if Walcott could score a KD against Louis is also a little amusing
I was making a fairly general roll call of highly-regarded all-time greats against an either/or of Walcott and Moore.
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Old 02-24-2008, 12:56 AM   #19
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

I don't play bingo, and I detest reverse psychology
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Old 02-24-2008, 07:06 AM   #20
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
This thread was meant mainly as a retort to Russell's "Could Patterson drop Marciano? Or was he not the puncher Walcott and Moore were?" thread, and the general bit of weak logic which is often thrown around by Marciano's detractors that because Moore and Walcott knocked him down, surely fighter X would finish him off. Nearly every other champion has been knocked down by lesser punchers and/or lesser fighters than Walcott and Moore, and hence that logic could be thrown around virtually any which way one pleased, were it not so often made into a double standard and used only against Marciano.
Fair point I'd expect Marciano to beat Patterson BUT Pattersons speed, skill would mean he'd land his best shots on Marciano and probably knock him down early. I'd even give Patterson an outside chance to win by either KO or points. If young Patterson shows up we get a KO either way and if a more mature Patterson shows up it probably goes the distance.

Either way I favour Marciano but Patterson would win the early rounds.
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:01 AM   #21
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Only a few of the examples I used were from fights where the champion could be reasonably considered to have been significantly outside his prime. I think you'll agree Holmes was in his prime when Snipes, a fringe contender with an unimpressive knockout percentage who never stopped a top fighter, had him on the floor and staggering down queer street. Ali was in his prime the fight before he won the title when he was floored hard and hurt badly enough that Dundee saw fit to try and cheat to buy him time against an average contender with an unimpressive knockout percentage who never stopped a top fighter in Cooper (who, by the way, for those overly fixated on size, was smaller than Walcott and the same size as Moore). I think you should agree that they were both hurt plenty worse than Marciano was against Walcott or Moore.
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I was making a fairly general roll call of highly-regarded all-time greats against an either/or of Walcott and Moore.
This is the first film I have seen of the Snipes fight since it was originally broadcast. I noticed the jump cut as Snipes was rushing across the ring after the knockdown to the two men on the opposite side of the ring. My memory is, and memory can play tricks, that Holmes was trapped in that corner for quite some time with Snipes belaboring him with punch after punch. I was looking forward to seeing this again and being able to judge how badly Holmes really was hurt, but the severe and odd editing made this impossible. Why was that very critical part of the fight cut out? And I understand you had nothing to do with what was cut or left in. Just a rhetorical question.

There is no question that Holmes fought his way out of trouble very well.
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:04 AM   #22
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Fair point I'd expect Marciano to beat Patterson BUT Pattersons speed, skill would mean he'd land his best shots on Marciano and probably knock him down early. I'd even give Patterson an outside chance to win by either KO or points. If young Patterson shows up we get a KO either way and if a more mature Patterson shows up it probably goes the distance.

Either way I favour Marciano but Patterson would win the early rounds.
I would note that there is scant evidence that Patterson was a fast starter, and much that he wasn't. I don't believe he stopped any name or even semi-name fighter before the fourth round, but Liston twice and Johansson once blew him out early.
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Old 02-24-2008, 03:18 PM   #23
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
This thread was meant mainly as a retort to Russell's "Could Patterson drop Marciano? Or was he not the puncher Walcott and Moore were?" thread, and the general bit of weak logic which is often thrown around by Marciano's detractors that because Moore and Walcott knocked him down, surely fighter X would finish him off. Nearly every other champion has been knocked down by lesser punchers and/or lesser fighters than Walcott and Moore, and hence that logic could be thrown around virtually any which way one pleased, were it not so often made into a double standard and used only against Marciano.

I know the arguements are so weak, I just wonder what there agenda is, the guy won all his fights and defended vs the # 1 contender 5 times and the #2 ,1 time, out of 6 defences and there was no one around or coming up that Rocky could have made some $$$$ with picking up his 50th win, so they say he was too small and then look at the height and weight of the guys that gave the other ATG's trouble, Cooper 185lbs dropped Ali, Frazier was 5"11, Shavers was 6" Tyson was 5"10 1/2, so then they talk about the age of his opponents but look the other way at Bernard Hopkins,Foreman"s comeback, 38 yr old 5"9 Toney. They dont care, they dont listen to reason,they need to pick hairs.....Rocky would lose because Frazier did but Frazier had 38 fights and won 33 of them but he was never the same after his 27th strait win over (ALI) I give Marciano the credit for fighting the way he did in Max Condition, fighting the best of his time, overcoming obstacles and using them to his advantage and retiring on top and never come back as less than his best.
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Old 02-24-2008, 05:54 PM   #24
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

Jersey Joe Walcott was not as good of a puncher as Ken Norton.
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:39 PM   #25
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis, etc.?
Yes. Anyone can knock anyone down.

But a better question is could they Walcott and Moore do the following : Hurt them, cut them, floor them, and extend them 13 or 9 rounds when the above fighters were in thir primes, and Walcot and Moore were as old as they were vs Marciano? In most cases I would say no.
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:52 PM   #26
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Jersey Joe Walcott was not as good of a puncher as Ken Norton.
Norton was not a one punch Ko guy ever, he was more of a looping round house guy but he was not a big puncher, Walcott dropped Louis,Marciano KO"D Charles and he could hit with both hands, Also JJW was much more of an acurate puncher than Norton
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:55 PM   #27
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Yes. Anyone can knock anyone down.

But a better question is could they Walcott and Moore do the following : Hurt them, cut them, floor them, and extend them 13 or 9 rounds when the above fighters were in thir primes, and Walcot and Moore were as old as they were vs Marciano? In most cases I would say no.
Ali got hit quite a few times by the 46 year old Moore, I would imagine Moore would have done better 8 yrs earlier
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Old 02-25-2008, 12:23 AM   #28
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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In most cases I would say no.
In what cases would you say yes then Dr. Z... sorry, but you opened the matter up.
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:14 AM   #29
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Yes. Anyone can knock anyone down.

But a better question is could they Walcott and Moore do the following : Hurt them, cut them, floor them, and extend them 13 or 9 rounds when the above fighters were in thir primes, and Walcot and Moore were as old as they were vs Marciano? In most cases I would say no.
1. Only Walcott had Marciano in noticeable trouble, and that wasn't nearly as bad as the state Holmes was in against Snipes, or Ali against Cooper, or Tyson against Douglas, or Foreman against Young, etc.
2. Cutting depends on the fighter and his type of skin, but they could certainly bust most guys up pretty badly.
3. Yes, since Moore and Walcott were in their primes when they fought Marciano and lighter-hitting and inferior fighters than Walcott and Moore were able to hurt, cut, floor and extend most of those guys long distances, I certainly believe Walcott and Moore were perfectly capable of doing it.
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:28 AM   #30
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Originally Posted by RoccoMarciano
In what cases would you say yes then Dr. Z... sorry, but you opened the matter up.
The question was, could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis, etc.?

I said yes they could, however a better question is could they ( Walcott and Moore ) do the following : Hurt them, cut them, floor them, and extend them 13 or 9 rounds when the above fighters were in their primes, and Walcott and Moore were as old as they were vs Marciano? In most cases, I would say no.


I will stand behind that statement. Your request in which case would I say could the Moore and Walcott who fought Marciano hurt, cut, floor, or extend the other all time greats in their primes. I beleive both could do it to Jack Johnson, and possibly Joe Frazier.

Reasoning, both Johnson and Frazier have dentable chins, are about the same size as Walcott and Moore, and style wise will give Walcott and Moore plenty of chances to either hurt or extend them. You could also add in Joe Louis as well.

I don't think Wlacott, or Moore would have much of a chance vs Tyson, Lewis, Holmes, Foreman, Demspey, or Holyfield in their primes. This is why I said NO in most cases. I hope that is the answer you were looking for.
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