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Old 02-25-2008, 08:36 AM   #31
Mendoza
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Marciano Frazier 1. Only Walcott had Marciano in noticeable trouble, and that wasn't nearly as bad as the state Holmes was in against Snipes, or Ali against Cooper, or Tyson against Douglas, or Foreman against Young, etc.
Disagree. Wlacot thad Marciano floored, behind on points, and badly cut. If thsi fight took place in 2008, it might have been a cuts stoppage. Moore had Marciano down, and arm weary. Ali, Holmes, and Foreman were never in the type of trouble that Wlacott had Marciano in terms of length of distress in the fight. Sure Tyson was upset by Dougals, but Dougals on that night was great, and had the right tools and style, plus hit hard enough to do it.

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2. Cutting depends on the fighter and his type of skin, but they could certainly bust most guys up pretty badly.
Cutting depends on lots of things, bone structe, glove types, defense, fouls, punch selections, etc...I can't recall Moore cutting other guys. Wlacott I think cut Louis, but Louis had some minor issues with cuts. IMO, slicing hooks create cuts more than jab's or rights. Wlacott had the hook. Moore was more of a jab or right cross type of fighter.


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3. Yes, since Moore and Walcott were in their primes when they fought Marciano and lighter-hitting and inferior fighters than Walcott and Moore were able to hurt, cut, floor and extend most of those guys long distances, I certainly believe Walcott and Moore were perfectly capable of doing it.
I'm not sure about Walcott because he did not win a fight after he fought Marciano, and retired. Walcott was not a rich man, and if he had something left, maybe he fights on.

Moore proved he had something left post Marciano. We know this because he won significant matches post Marciano, but Moore came into the Marciano fight in poor conditon and winded himself due to older age and Marciano's pressure.
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:06 AM   #32
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Ali got hit quite a few times by the 46 year old Moore, I would imagine Moore would have done better 8 yrs earlier
Yes and he woulda done a lot better against a 20 year old Marciano. I'm gonna watch that fight again to see how well he really did.
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Old 02-26-2008, 08:12 AM   #33
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

Mendoza wroteDisagree. Wlacot thad Marciano floored, behind on points, and badly cut. If thsi fight took place in 2008, it might have been a cuts stoppage. Moore had Marciano down, and arm weary. Ali, Holmes, and Foreman were never in the type of trouble that Wlacott had Marciano in terms of length of distress in the fight. Sure Tyson was upset by Dougals, but Dougals on that night was great, and had the right tools and style, plus hit hard enough to do it.

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Ali was hurt badly with Frazier in the 11th round,wobbled and cleary rocked and Dropped hard in the 15th. Ali was also dropped hard by the 185lb Cooper and visably shaken, Ali also was beaten pretty bad by Norton in there 1st fight (broken Jaw swelled up Bad) (they may have stopped that fight in 200 Foreman was wobbled and dropped and hurt badly by Ron Lyle in there 5 rounds, George arm weary was Knocked out cold vs Ali in 7rds . Battered and exhusted in the latter rounds chasing and getting pop shotted and dropped and badly hurt in the 12th rd by Jimmy Young. Take a look at Foreman's face after his win over Alex Stewart (pretty bad) Check out the way Holmes was wobbled by trail horse 19-8 Mike Weaver in there fight Dropped hard and wobbling by Shavers(good thing Earnie had zero stamina) and Dropped hard by Renaldo Mr. Snipes and look at the demolition job Tyson did on him. HOW CAN YOU COMPARE A FLASH KD BY MOORE in a fight that Marciano DOMINATED from that point on (bouncing Moore up and down like a YO-YO to the beating these fighter got. How DO you compare the Walcott flash KD and the ever strong Marciano (never dicouraged) showing his Strength with a 13th RD CLEAN KO (the proof is in the puddin). And Mendoza how could you say Buster Douglas was great that night (BUSTER WAS NEVER GREAT) Buster did come in shape (Tyson was reportedly training on geisa girls) but Buster was inspired by his moms death but the key came when he did not quit(buster was kind of known as a quitter) when he was dropped and got up and fought back. I think that was a time that revealed more about Tyson than Buster and it was repeated again when a fighter took what Tyson had and came back....Evander,Williams,Lewis,McBride
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Old 02-26-2008, 08:15 AM   #34
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

Marciano was not cut that badly vs Walcott. Outside of round 11 perhaps, I dont see how today's ref would have stop the bout.

The cut was pretty tame when compare to say VK going a few rounds with Lewis with that cut eye.
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Old 02-26-2008, 08:48 AM   #35
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Ali was hurt badly with Frazier in the 11th round,wobbled and cleary rocked and Dropped hard in the 15th. Ali was also dropped hard by the 185lb Cooper and visably shaken, Ali also was beaten pretty bad by Norton in there 1st fight (broken Jaw swelled up Bad) (they may have stopped that fight in 200 Foreman was wobbled and dropped and hurt badly by Ron Lyle in there 5 rounds, George arm weary was Knocked out cold vs Ali in 7rds . Battered and exhusted in the latter rounds chasing and getting pop shotted and dropped and badly hurt in the 12th rd by Jimmy Young. Take a look at Foreman's face after his win over Alex Stewart (pretty bad) Check out the way Holmes was wobbled by trail horse 19-8 Mike Weaver in there fight Dropped hard and wobbling by Shavers(good thing Earnie had zero stamina) and Dropped hard by Renaldo Mr. Snipes and look at the demolition job Tyson did on him. HOW CAN YOU COMPARE A FLASH KD BY MOORE in a fight that Marciano DOMINATED from that point on (bouncing Moore up and down like a YO-YO to the beating these fighter got. How DO you compare the Walcott flash KD and the ever strong Marciano (never dicouraged) showing his Strength with a 13th RD CLEAN KO (the proof is in the puddin). And Mendoza how could you say Buster Douglas was great that night (BUSTER WAS NEVER GREAT) Buster did come in shape (Tyson was reportedly training on geisa girls) but Buster was inspired by his moms death but the key came when he did not quit(buster was kind of known as a quitter) when he was dropped and got up and fought back. I think that was a time that revealed more about Tyson than Buster and it was repeated again when a fighter took what Tyson had and came back....Evander,Williams,Lewis,McBride
I do not think the Moore and Walcott who fought Marciano could do what they did to Rocky vs Pirme verisons of Ali, Foreman, Holmes or Tyson. Those were my points. Now for some coutner points.

1 ) Ali was green vs Cooper, and moved much quicker than Marciano was. Frazier is better than anyone Marciano fought.

2 ) Foreman. Lyle hit harder than anyone Marciano fought, and Young was in his prime, which Wlacott and Moore were not. Foreman was old vs Stewart.

3 ) Holmes. Holmes chin is far more proven that Marciano's. Shavers was an all time hitter. Not sure if Rocky gets up to win if he's hit with that type of shot. Sinpes was an under rated / determined type of fighter, and stronger than the fighters Marciano fought. Holmes was too old vs Tyson to rate.

4 ) Tyson. Douglas was great on that night and had the stuff and size that Moore and Walcott did not. Moore or Walcott could not fight Tyson that way as they lacked the size and range.
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Old 02-26-2008, 02:33 PM   #36
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
I do not think the Moore and Walcott who fought Marciano could do what they did to Rocky vs Pirme verisons of Ali, Foreman, Holmes or Tyson. Those were my points. Now for some coutner points.

1 ) Ali was green vs Cooper, and moved much quicker than Marciano was. Frazier is better than anyone Marciano fought.

2 ) Foreman. Lyle hit harder than anyone Marciano fought, and Young was in his prime, which Wlacott and Moore were not. Foreman was old vs Stewart.

3 ) Holmes. Holmes chin is far more proven that Marciano's. Shavers was an all time hitter. Not sure if Rocky gets up to win if he's hit with that type of shot. Sinpes was an under rated / determined type of fighter, and stronger than the fighters Marciano fought. Holmes was too old vs Tyson to rate.

4 ) Tyson. Douglas was great on that night and had the stuff and size that Moore and Walcott did not. Moore or Walcott could not fight Tyson that way as they lacked the size and range.

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1)Ali was quicker than Marciano was but Patterson KO'd the same Cooper in 4 clean KO, Marciano would not have to be quick vs Cooper (it would be a quick clean KO by Rocky. Frazier was good but IMO not as good as Marciano was, and I think Walcott should not be underestimated.

2) Lyle was an overated puncher, Quarry took a prime Lyles best shots and here is a list of the much KO'd opponents that went the distance with Lyle..and look at there records and see who KO'd them..Manual Ramos( KO"D in 1 by Bonevena 2 by Frazier, 7 by Jack O"Halloran) Bob Stallings, Gregorio Peralta w10, D10(and Peralta was 38 year old) Wendell Newton SD, Lou Bailey, Stan Ward, Scott Ledoux...Lyle was overated as puncher

3)Holmes chin was more proven then Marciano,well Snipes dropped him and rocked him(Snipes was no Puncher) Shavers could hit but he had no stamina(Marciano had stamina and power) but Shavers failed to ko when he moved up in class(he could not stop Lgt HVY Vincente Rondon who was KO'd in 2 by Bob Foster) I remember Holmes getting flattened and KO"D by 5"10 Nick Wells 2 times for the Nationals and dropped and stopped by Duane Bobick for the trials. Holmes could roll with a lot of punches but I was disapointed that Larry avoided too many right hand puncher of his time,Page,Dokes,Coetzee,Thomas,Tate....and again vs Shavers I think Ali, Quarry,Stallings,Cobb,Stander,Rondon proved that they had good chins by not going down vs Shaver, Holmes proved his heart by getting up not his chin by going down.


4) you may want to call Douglas great that night but I think it was a matter of Douglas suprising Mike by coming into the fight in condition and getting up off the floor and fighting back, like I said before it proved more about Tyson then Buster because Buster was KO"D in his next fight vs Evander and Tyson failed in fights vs Lewis,Williams,McBride and Evander when they were not intimadated and fought back
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:38 AM   #37
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Disagree. Wlacot thad Marciano floored, behind on points, and badly cut. If thsi fight took place in 2008, it might have been a cuts stoppage.
Marciano was not cut nearly badly enough to merit a stoppage in a heavyweight championship match- there would have been a riot, even in 2008. And even if he were, the primary cut he suffered was the result of a clash of heads in round four which cut both men.

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Moore had Marciano down, and arm weary.
Marciano won at least five of eight complete rounds in that fight on all three scorecards, was down for a two-count when caught with a punch at an instant when he was caught standing on one foot and knocked Moore down four times and out. If you're going to claim he was exposed by some kind of great difficulty he had in this match because he was "arm weary" after throwing 110+ punches in round six and 75+ punches in multiple other rounds, you're badly, badly desperate.

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Ali, Holmes, and Foreman were never in the type of trouble that Wlacott had Marciano in terms of length of distress in the fight.
Ali was actually beaten over a 15-round distance against Frazier and Norton, and Foreman was actually beaten over a 12-round distance against Young- clearly they had greater "length of distress" in their trials than Marciano. Holmes was never outpointed at or near his prime, but he had a couple of fights (Norton and Witherspoon) which went to split decisions some thought he arguably lost during his peak years, while Marciano, say what you will about him "struggling," indisputably won all of his major peak fights. I will also point out that a prime/near-prime Foreman was down twice and badly hurt against Lyle (doesn't technically fit your criteria since it only lasted a couple rounds, but Foreman was closer to losing to Lyle than Marciano was to Walcott) and a prime/near-prime Ali was taken to a decision many thought he should've lost against Jones.

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Sure Tyson was upset by Dougals, but Dougals on that night was great, and had the right tools and style, plus hit hard enough to do it.
All the same things are true of Walcott, except that Marciano won.


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Cutting depends on lots of things, bone structe, glove types, defense, fouls, punch selections, etc...I can't recall Moore cutting other guys. Wlacott I think cut Louis, but Louis had some minor issues with cuts. IMO, slicing hooks create cuts more than jab's or rights. Wlacott had the hook. Moore was more of a jab or right cross type of fighter.
Moore barely opened a nick around one of Marciano's eyes- it isn't as though streams of blood were pouring down his face, or anything vaguely close to that. Vitali Klitschko was cut a heck of a lot worse by another jab/right-cross fighter in Lewis, and you hardly seem to ride his back for it. Marciano did suffer two cuts against Walcott, but the first and bloodier one was the result of a clash of heads that cut both men
(you can see Walcott bleeding fairly badly himself in a couple of the higher-quality photos of this fight), and the second was below the right eye from a hook in round 11 and wasn't exactly gushing blood.
Marciano was only in serious danger of being stopped on cuts in one of his major fights, and that was a freak-of-nature nose cut that probably resulted from an elbow.

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I'm not sure about Walcott because he did not win a fight after he fought Marciano, and retired. Walcott was not a rich man, and if he had something left, maybe he fights on.
He most certainly was a rich man after participating in eight world heavyweight championship fights. Do you think Marciano had nothing left after the Moore fight?

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Moore proved he had something left post Marciano. We know this because he won significant matches post Marciano, but Moore came into the Marciano fight in poor conditon and winded himself due to older age and Marciano's pressure.
You CAN'T seriously believe Moore came into the Marciano fight out of shape. The man had been campaigning for a heavyweight title fight for the last three years and had beaten any and every name heavyweight he could get his hands on to get it, had held an enormous media campaign, sent out "WANTED" posters with Marciano's face on them, harassed him personally, and had gone through bitter, bloody battle after battle in the ring, all to get his shot at the heavyweight title. Moore was lighter for the Marciano fight than he was for the Marciano fight than he was against either Valdes or Baker in the last year-and-a-half, eight pounds lighter than when he won a hard-fought 15-rounder over Valdes months before fighting Marciano. If you seriously think Moore came into that fight out of shape, I don't know what to say to you.
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Old 02-27-2008, 07:53 AM   #38
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

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Marciano Frazier Marciano was not cut nearly badly enough to merit a stoppage in a heavyweight championship match- there would have been a riot, even in 2008. And even if he were, the primary cut he suffered was the result of a clash of heads in round four which cut both men.
The Charles match and the Walcott match could have been stopped. It is a ring doctor's call and in 2008 they stop them much quicker. Marciano could not see vs Walcott and looked like he might lose part of his nose vs Charels.

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Marciano won at least five of eight complete rounds in that fight on all three scorecards, was down for a two-count when caught with a punch at an instant when he was caught standing on one foot and knocked Moore down four times and out. If you're going to claim he was exposed by some kind of great difficulty he had in this match because he was "arm weary" after throwing 110+ punches in round six and 75+ punches in multiple other rounds, you're badly, badly desperate.
He wasn't badly exposed ( but he missed a ton of punches ) , but he was arm weary. You can see it on film later in the fight, and even Don Dumphy says it. Rocky was sloppy in this match.

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Ali was actually beaten over a 15-round distance against Frazier and Norton, and Foreman was actually beaten over a 12-round distance against Young- clearly they had greater "length of distress" in their trials than Marciano. Holmes was never outpointed at or near his prime, but he had a couple of fights (Norton and Witherspoon) which went to split decisions some thought he arguably lost during his peak years, while Marciano, say what you will about him "struggling," indisputably won all of his major peak fights. I will also point out that a prime/near-prime Foreman was down twice and badly hurt against Lyle (doesn't technically fit your criteria since it only lasted a couple rounds, but Foreman was closer to losing to Lyle than Marciano was to Walcott) and a prime/near-prime Ali was taken to a decision many thought he should've lost against Jones.
Prime versions of Ali, Foreman, Holmes not have trouble with smaller / past their prime guys. That is the difference. I do not think the prime Ali, the prime Foreman, or the prime Holmes has the same type of trouble vs the exact same version of Rocky's opponents. They would not get floored, cut, knocked down, or be down on the cards. This above all else is how I see it. If you think prime versions of Ali, Foreman and Holmes have the same type of troubles that Rocky did, just say so. I think you agree with me that they would not, yet I see you muddying the waters on the reply.

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Moore barely opened a nick around one of Marciano's eyes- it isn't as though streams of blood were pouring down his face, or anything vaguely close to that. Vitali Klitschko was cut a heck of a lot worse by another jab/right-cross fighter in Lewis, and you hardly seem to ride his back for it.
That was the first time Vitlai was cut as an amateur or pro, and the ring doctor stopped the fight. The ring doctor let all of Marciano's fight go on.

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Marciano did suffer two cuts against Walcott, but the first and bloodier one was the result of a clash of heads that cut both men
(you can see Walcott bleeding fairly badly himself in a couple of the higher-quality photos of this fight), and the second was below the right eye from a hook in round 11 and wasn't exactly gushing blood.
Marciano was only in serious danger of being stopped on cuts in one of his major fights, and that was a freak-of-nature nose cut that probably resulted from an elbow.
Not so. Marciano suffered a bad cut vs Keenee Simmons and one of his books ( Undefeated I think ) says if Rocky wasn't an undefeated prospect with a manager backing him, that one is stopped on cuts.

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He most certainly was a rich man after participating in eight world heavyweight championship fights. Do you think Marciano had nothing left after the Moore fight?
Rocky does not agree with you. In the book I read ( Undefeated I think ) it says Marciano had back related problems well before the Moore fight, and had injections to dull the pain. I think Rocky who built his game on bending and twisting just felt his back problems would catch up to him sooner or later and called it quits. No-- Rocky was not a rich man after he retired. His manager took a big cut, and Rocky had some so-so business related investments.

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You CAN'T seriously believe Moore came into the Marciano fight out of shape. The man had been campaigning for a heavyweight title fight for the last three years and had beaten any and every name heavyweight he could get his hands on to get it, had held an enormous media campaign, sent out "WANTED" posters with Marciano's face on them, harassed him personally, and had gone through bitter, bloody battle after battle in the ring, all to get his shot at the heavyweight title. Moore was lighter for the Marciano fight than he was for the Marciano fight than he was against either Valdes or Baker in the last year-and-a-half, eight pounds lighter than when he won a hard-fought 15-rounder over Valdes months before fighting Marciano. If you seriously think Moore came into that fight out of shape, I don't know what to say to you.
Why did Moore tire so quickly? Did he have less stamina that Charles or Walcott? Sorry, but Moore looked tired in that fight. It could have been age or being at a lower weight. I do not know but he looks tired on the film, and not all of it is from hard body shots.

Last edited by Mendoza; 02-27-2008 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 02-27-2008, 08:07 AM   #39
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Default Re: Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

There is a lot of info in that paragraph and I agree with all of it!

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Originally Posted by Bummy Davis
I know the arguements are so weak, I just wonder what there agenda is, the guy won all his fights and defended vs the # 1 contender 5 times and the #2 ,1 time, out of 6 defences and there was no one around or coming up that Rocky could have made some $$$$ with picking up his 50th win, so they say he was too small and then look at the height and weight of the guys that gave the other ATG's trouble, Cooper 185lbs dropped Ali, Frazier was 5"11, Shavers was 6" Tyson was 5"10 1/2, so then they talk about the age of his opponents but look the other way at Bernard Hopkins,Foreman"s comeback, 38 yr old 5"9 Toney. They dont care, they dont listen to reason,they need to pick hairs.....Rocky would lose because Frazier did but Frazier had 38 fights and won 33 of them but he was never the same after his 27th strait win over (ALI) I give Marciano the credit for fighting the way he did in Max Condition, fighting the best of his time, overcoming obstacles and using them to his advantage and retiring on top and never come back as less than his best.
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