Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-25-2008, 04:12 PM   #1
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,545
vCash: 1000
Default Why is it assumed fighters from 12-15 round eras cant go 45rounds?

This is an inaccurate when talking about fit, strong fighters. Fight length plays on stamina. Many fighters of the 12-15 round eras will have much more stamina than most in the 45round eras. I hear posters claim ATG fit fighters like Ali & Holyfield would have a problem competing over 45 rounds with fighters that were most likely not as fit like Jeffries.

Another outlandish claim fans of the 45round eras make is that boxers that fought over 45rounds had the same punch output as today's fighters maintain over 12 rounds. All the evidence points against this with footage showing slow paced action. Jack Johnson critised Dempsey's 15round fast paced fighting because it was unsuitable for longer round fights

Punch output drops the longer a fight goes on. Watch the same fighters fight 4-6round contests then watch them in 12round contests. There punch output drops considerably. Yet some posters claim 45round fighters maintained a 30-100punch a round pace. What were they throwing in 12round fights 1000punches a round?
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 02-25-2008, 04:20 PM   #2
godking
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 560
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why is it assumed fighters from 12-15 round eras cant go 45rounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
This is an inaccurate when talking about fit, strong fighters. Fight length plays on stamina. Many fighters of the 12-15 round eras will have much more stamina than most in the 45round eras. I hear posters claim ATG fit fighters like Ali & Holyfield would have a problem competing over 45 rounds with fighters that were most likely not as fit like Jeffries.

Another outlandish claim fans of the 45round eras make is that boxers that fought over 45rounds had the same punch output as today's fighters maintain over 12 rounds. All the evidence points against this with footage showing slow paced action. Jack Johnson critised Dempsey's 15round fast paced fighting because it was unsuitable for longer round fights

Punch output drops the longer a fight goes on. Watch the same fighters fight 4-6round contests then watch them in 12round contests. There punch output drops considerably. Yet some posters claim 45round fighters maintained a 30-100punch a round pace. What were they throwing in 12round fights 1000punches a round?
A 30-100 punch a round rate in a FULL 45 round fight is physically impossible. The longer a fight goes the more energy a fighter has to conserve to make it too the last round.
godking is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2008, 04:30 PM   #3
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,545
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why is it assumed fighters from 12-15 round eras cant go 45rounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by godking
A 30-100 punch a round rate in a FULL 45 round fight is physically impossible. The longer a fight goes the more energy a fighter has to conserve to make it too the last round.
I know its impossible I'm paraphrasing claims made on this board
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2008, 04:37 PM   #4
Sweet Pea
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: I never sleep, cuz sleep is the cousin of death
Posts: 13,604
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why is it assumed fighters from 12-15 round eras cant go 45rounds?

To clear it up, as the bareknuckle and pre-1900's era is not my thing, what exactly were the lengths of the rounds? I've heard they were not simply 3 minute rounds, but rather were very inconsistent time wise and depended on different factors in terms of when they were ended. What exactly was the deal?
Sweet Pea is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2008, 09:39 PM   #5
radianttwilight
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,272
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why is it assumed fighters from 12-15 round eras cant go 45rounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
To clear it up, as the bareknuckle and pre-1900's era is not my thing, what exactly were the lengths of the rounds? I've heard they were not simply 3 minute rounds, but rather were very inconsistent time wise and depended on different factors in terms of when they were ended. What exactly was the deal?
I've heard, from several sources, that alot of early gloved boxing/late bareknuckle boxing was fought in rounds that ended with a knockdown. John L. Sullivan was one of the names mentioned, in particular.

It'd be quite a bit easier to go 45 rounds if you could take a knee after you got hit by a punch to earn a free ride back to the corner. It would make it really hard to KO somebody, too, because anybody in any kind of trouble would play it safe and go down to recover. In a scenario like that, you'd have to knock them out cold.

The rounds may of have time limits, I don't remember, but what I do remember is that it was fairly common practice for fighters to go down intentionally, because, not only did rounds end with a knockdown, but in the "to finish" type fights that were common back then, there was no real penalty for "losing" a round...it was much better to live to fight another one. I don't even know if they kept score in some of those matches.
radianttwilight is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2008, 09:47 PM   #6
Sweet Pea
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: I never sleep, cuz sleep is the cousin of death
Posts: 13,604
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why is it assumed fighters from 12-15 round eras cant go 45rounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravecubs
Im 58yrs. old Sugar your girl makes me feel 22,well maybe 29! Thanks bru. Sugar the thing isI love RING ,started in DEmpseys day!! he rates moderns very bad !!! made in 1959he doesnt rate Ali!!! But well, its safe to say after the thrilla in Manila hed HAVE TOO!!Sugar Im not a moder guy, maybe (its ERA PREJUDGE) So many darn hates!! Sugar ,it works both ways!! Camera speed what ever !! Ive Seen Jack Johnson (Everything) Ol Nat ,Rates him #1 All-time heavy. Lets face it the guy was great!!!Ive seen Jeanette.He other great Black ,McveyFought 49 rds, Paris @ 3min. rds ( keep that in mind) Both were Defensive fighters, Thou pardoxically there were 28 knockdowns! Im not here to argue but this fun for me . Sugar you know your stuff But read 50 years at ringside. Your probably a youngblood Sugar,Remember a lot of 20yr. old guys tell me training ,is a science today.So Sugar that tells me condition WERE harsher in bygone years. Sugar my point being ,Really IM not saying Ali Holeyfield( really overated guy to me) couldnt go 45 rounds, But nobody including these modern idols has!!!!Look Sugar at Ali , if Frazier(underated) hadnt quit at MAnilla Ali very well COULD have!!!Take all things into consideration, BE OPEN _MINDED, & take care of that sweet young thing!!! I will close with the make Women better than they used too,....Shes fine!!! ....
Cubs, why do you think Holyfield is overrated? I find him quite underrated. He had quite a few losses in there(most of them past his prime), but he never hesitated to take on the best of the best, and beat most of them. He was as old-school as old-school comes among the modern fighters. A true warrior in my eyes.
Sweet Pea is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2008, 10:21 PM   #7
Sweet Pea
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: I never sleep, cuz sleep is the cousin of death
Posts: 13,604
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why is it assumed fighters from 12-15 round eras cant go 45rounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravecubs
Sweat Pea your right ,but Vander was a lot better at cruiser!!And those Lewis ( now theres underated) Ruiz fights are ugh !!And really darn he costs me a bundle on that 1st Moorer fight!! I really knew when to bet on Vander, peace. ...
True, he was a better Cruiser(the best), but I think that says a lot about his heart and determination to fight the majority of his career at a higher weight class and be as successful as he was. A tad inconsistent yes, but so were many classic greats.
Sweet Pea is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 03:47 AM   #8
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 20,562
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why is it assumed fighters from 12-15 round eras cant go 45rounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by godking
A 30-100 punch a round rate in a FULL 45 round fight is physically impossible. The longer a fight goes the more energy a fighter has to conserve to make it too the last round.
No it isnt.

Bat Nelson and Ad Wolgast averaged 85 punches per round each over the course of a 42 round fight scheduled to go 45.

You can watch the film and count the punches if you want.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 03:53 AM   #9
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 20,562
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why is it assumed fighters from 12-15 round eras cant go 45rounds?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
This is an inaccurate when talking about fit, strong fighters. Fight length plays on stamina. Many fighters of the 12-15 round eras will have much more stamina than most in the 45round eras. I hear posters claim ATG fit fighters like Ali & Holyfield would have a problem competing over 45 rounds with fighters that were most likely not as fit like Jeffries.
We cannot asume that modern fighters couldnt go 45 rounds and we equaly cannot assume that they could. We can however asume that some old timers could go 45 rounds.

Ali as a fighter who relied heavily on footwork would be penalised by the 45 round distance more than most because he is expending more energy per round than his oponent. Like with James Corbett the danger is that his oponent catches up with him after 20 rounds when he simply has to go toe to toe.

Quote:
Another outlandish claim fans of the 45round eras make is that boxers that fought over 45rounds had the same punch output as today's fighters maintain over 12 rounds. All the evidence points against this with footage showing slow paced action.
Most didnt.

Some absolutely did, especialy in the lower weight classes.

The evidence is there on film and it is not up for debate.

Quote:
Punch output drops the longer a fight goes on. Watch the same fighters fight 4-6round contests then watch them in 12round contests. There punch output drops considerably.
Not necisarily. Swarmers for example often maintain a prety uniform punch output over the course of a fight perhaps peaking in the mid rounds.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 04:01 AM   #10
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 36,368
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why is it assumed fighters from 12-15 round eras cant go 45rounds?

What it is: to be credited with such an impressive achievment you probably have to prove you can do it. If two guys are having a fight and their of similair quality (like absolute top pro's will tend to be), and one has done 45 rounds twice and one has never done more than 12 it's logical to favour the first fighter over the 45 round distance.

But Powerpuncher is correct. I would excpect some top atheletes from the modern era to be able to do it. Guys like Hollyfield and Marciano probably would have benefited. Guys like Hopkins and Morales would have found a way.

But it should also be added that a sport that requires enormous feets of physical endurance will reward fighters capable of performing them. The more modern version of the sport attracts sportsmen not neccesarily capable of such feets. Ruslan Chagaev, for example, couldn't be expected to do 45 rounds, i'm guessing Valuev would struggle.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 04:11 AM   #11
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 20,562
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why is it assumed fighters from 12-15 round eras cant go 45rounds?

The camera dosnt lie. At least not when it comes to number of punches thrown.


Ray Leonard vs Roberto Duran I

Duran averaged 90-92 punches for 15 rounds


Shane Mosley vs Oscar De La Hoya

Mosley average of 41 punches a round

ODLH averaged 51 punches a round.


Battling Nelson vs Ad Wolgast

Nelson averaged 85 punches a round over 42 rounds. He threw 90 in the 30th round.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 07:52 AM   #12
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,770
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why is it assumed fighters from 12-15 round eras cant go 45rounds?

I think the modern day well-conditioned 12 rounds fighters can go 15, and the well-conditioned 15 round golden age fighters could go 20. Beyond 20 rounds is a lot to ask for anyone. The old timers who went 20 or more amaze me. This was the era of hot outdoor fights, rough clinching, and body punching. To go 20 rounds under these types of conditions is an amazing feat of stamina. While a marathon runner can go 26 miles, they don’t get hit.

I don't think ANY modern day fighter could go 45 rounds. The best fighters these days are too well off. You would have to be born in that era, harden by lack of luxury, and familar with distance fighting tactics.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 07:57 AM   #13
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 20,562
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why is it assumed fighters from 12-15 round eras cant go 45rounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
I think the modern day well-conditioned 12 rounds fighters can go 15, and the well-conditioned 15 round golden age fighters could go 20. Beyond 20 rounds is a lot to ask for anyone. The old timers who went 20 or more amaze me. This was the era of hot outdoor fights, rough clinching, and body punching. To go 20 rounds under these types of conditions is an amazing feat of stamina. While a marathon runner can go 26 miles, they donít get hit.

I don't think ANY modern day fighter could go 45 rounds. The best fighters these days are too well off. You would have to be born in that era, harden by lack of luxury, and familar with distance fighting tactics.
To be fair not that many fighters from the era of 45 rounders could go an honest 45 rounds.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 08:01 AM   #14
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,770
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why is it assumed fighters from 12-15 round eras cant go 45rounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
To be fair not that many fighters from the era of 45 rounders could go an honest 45 rounds.
True.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 08:17 AM   #15
Sonny's jab
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: Why is it assumed fighters from 12-15 round eras cant go 45rounds?

Which fighters went 45 (3 min.) rounds anyway ?
 Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013