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Old 02-29-2008, 02:25 AM   #31
fists of fury
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Default Re: Evander Holyfield - How Strong?

From wikipedia:

On February 28, 2007, Holyfield was anonymously linked to Applied Pharmacy Services, a pharmacy in Alabama that is currently under investigation for supplying athletes with illegal sterioids and human growth hormone (HGH). He denies ever using performance enhancers.[1] Ironically, Holyfield's name does not appear in the law enforcement documents reviewed. However, a patient by the name of "Evan Fields" caught investigators' attention. "Fields" shares the same birth date as Holyfield -- Oct. 19, 1962. The listed address for "Fields" was 794 Evander, Fairfield, Ga. 30213. Holyfield has a very similar address. When the phone number that, according to the documents, was associated with the "Fields" prescription, was dialed, Holyfield answered.[2] On March 10, 2007 Holyfield made a public announcement that he would be pursuing his own investigation into the steroid claims in order to clear his name.[3]

Holyfield was again linked to HGH in September 2007, when his name came up following a raid of Signature Pharmacy in Orlando, FL.[4] As of September 2007, Signature Pharmacy is under investigation for illegally supplying several professional athletes with steroids and HGH.[5]
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:10 AM   #32
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Default Re: Evander Holyfield - How Strong?

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Originally Posted by fists of fury
Of course he would deny it.
Deeply-rooted Christian principles never stopped Lee Haney or Ronnie Coleman from 'turning the other cheek.' And let's not forget Holyfield trained with Lee Haney.

So you want to tell me in one year, he packed 190 lbs. onto his bench press naturally? Mate, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you...
Such gains are possible among people who are new to heavy weight training, esp. exrraordinarily gifted athletes like Holyfield obviously is.
I know Joe Average guys who've put 110 pounds on their bench press in a year when first taking up proper weight training.

But these types of discussions lead nowhere.
I often read people say stuff like, "It's impossible to put that much weigh on naturally!" talking about 20 pounds bodyweight in a year, but I know several people who've done so, naturally.

Usually the guys saying "It's impossible!" really mean "Why cant I do it?" (And it's often 'cos they never really TRIED).
I'm not saying that's you, but that's where the discussions lead, guys coming out of the woodwork saying "Yeah, that's impossible!" and they dont know shit about it.

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Old 02-29-2008, 05:24 AM   #33
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Default Re: Evander Holyfield - How Strong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Such gains are possible among people who are new to heavy weight training, esp. exrraordinarily gifted athletes like Holyfield obviously is.
I know Joe Average guys who've put 110 pounds on their bench press in a year when first taking up proper weight training.

But these types of discussions lead nowhere.
I often read people say stuff like, "It's impossible to put that much weigh on naturally!" talking about 20 pounds bodyweight in a year, but I know several people who've done so, naturally.

Usually the guys saying "It's impossible!" really mean "Why cant I do it?" (And it's often 'cos they never really TRIED).
I'm not saying that's you, but that's where the discussions lead, guys coming out of the woodwork saying "Yeah, that's impossible!" and they dont know shit about it.
I was anticipating this sort of post.

SJ, I myself have put over 100 lbs. extra on my bench, although it took slightly longer than a year. Obviously others have as well. The key difference though, was that people like that have been doing very little else other than training for size/strength. And even then, adding 190 lbs is highly unusual in anyone's book.
Evander, being a pro boxer, will have done tons of cardio, sparring, hitting bags etc. that will severly impact on his weight training.

I'm not saying it's flat out impossible that he could have maybe packed 190 lbs. on his bench doing it naturally, I just think it's highly unlikely.

Let's take this to it's logical conclusion.

Evander benches 185 to start off with.
After one year, he benches 375.
That's a 190 lb. increase.

Now, according to the natural state of things, he should theoretically be able to add a further 95 lbs. in his 2nd year. (190/2=95)
This brings his total bench press to 470 lbs. after only 2 years of training.
In his third year, he theoretically could possibly add another 48 lbs to his bench
(95/2=4 bringing his bench press to 518 lbs. after only three years of traning.

Being conservative, we could half all those incremental inceases that lead us to:

In his second year, bench pressing 423 lbs.
In his third year, bench pressing 447 lbs.
Etc. etc.
All naturally, of course. And for 12 reps no less.

Nobody hits their strength peak in only 2 or 3 years. We can safely say that Evander, doing all the other demanding excercises a boxer does, and (for argument's sake) weight training in exactly the same manner constantly, would be bench pressing 447 lbs. after 3 years of training, and possibly as high as 518 lbs. if he's got freakish genes.

Does this make sense to you, because I find it outlandish.
He lacks the necessary mass.

I know strength athletes lift amazing amounts at relatively low bodyweights, but their have the inherent physical mechanics to do so, in addition to using copious amounts of steroids, bench suits, and training specifically for strength/power.
That's a whole different ballgame.

Now, if someone said "Evander bench pressed 375 lbs. for 12 reps after a couple of years." I could easily believe that. But in one year? The claim is either bs. or he was likely on something.
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Old 02-29-2008, 06:51 AM   #34
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Default Re: Evander Holyfield - How Strong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
I was anticipating this sort of post.

SJ, I myself have put over 100 lbs. extra on my bench, although it took slightly longer than a year. Obviously others have as well. The key difference though, was that people like that have been doing very little else other than training for size/strength. And even then, adding 190 lbs is highly unusual in anyone's book.
Evander, being a pro boxer, will have done tons of cardio, sparring, hitting bags etc. that will severly impact on his weight training.

I'm not saying it's flat out impossible that he could have maybe packed 190 lbs. on his bench doing it naturally, I just think it's highly unlikely.

Let's take this to it's logical conclusion.

Evander benches 185 to start off with.
After one year, he benches 375.
That's a 190 lb. increase.

Now, according to the natural state of things, he should theoretically be able to add a further 95 lbs. in his 2nd year. (190/2=95)
This brings his total bench press to 470 lbs. after only 2 years of training.
In his third year, he theoretically could possibly add another 48 lbs to his bench
(95/2=4 bringing his bench press to 518 lbs. after only three years of traning.

Being conservative, we could half all those incremental inceases that lead us to:

In his second year, bench pressing 423 lbs.
In his third year, bench pressing 447 lbs.
Etc. etc.
All naturally, of course. And for 12 reps no less.

Nobody hits their strength peak in only 2 or 3 years. We can safely say that Evander, doing all the other demanding excercises a boxer does, and (for argument's sake) weight training in exactly the same manner constantly, would be bench pressing 447 lbs. after 3 years of training, and possibly as high as 518 lbs. if he's got freakish genes.

Does this make sense to you, because I find it outlandish.
He lacks the necessary mass.

I know strength athletes lift amazing amounts at relatively low bodyweights, but their have the inherent physical mechanics to do so, in addition to using copious amounts of steroids, bench suits, and training specifically for strength/power.
That's a whole different ballgame.

Now, if someone said "Evander bench pressed 375 lbs. for 12 reps after a couple of years." I could easily believe that. But in one year? The claim is either bs. or he was likely on something.
Well,
A Bench-press of 375 for 12 reps at 6'2" (with long levers ie.arms) and weighing 205-210 pounds sounds like BULLSHIT to me.
Nevermind what he started at or how long it took him, or whether he used drugs. I think the TOP NUMBERS are an exaggeration, or somewhere along the line someone confused or compared a "bench press machine" with the real thing.
Well, I find it hard to believe. He just doesn't look built for it. But who knows.

If his starting Bench was as low as is described though, I give more credence to the claims of a massive improvement (though not accepting the 12 reps thing).

I mean, if he really had a 1-rep max. Bench of 185 to start with (which is still probably 50 or 60 pounds or so more than the average untrained young guy on the street, but perhaps a somewhat lowish expectation for a chiselled 190 pound undisputed world cruiser champ?) I think a massive improvement in a short period of time is not outlandish .

The lower he started off at the more scope I give for improvement.

I have no doubt that Evander Holyfield was an athlete of exceptional genetic potential, to which ordinary general rules would not apply. Add to that the fact that his mentality and work ethic would be about 500% superior to anyone I've ever meet, and he's bound to achieve some jaw-dropping progress in the weight room, without drugs. He could possibly achieve in 1 year what you'd expect other athletes to take 3-4 years to achieve.

So, yes, I believe Holyfield could have put on 190 pounds to a bench press in 1 year without drugs.
But I find it hard to believe he was bench-pressing 375 for TWELVE REPS back in 1989, drugs or no drugs.
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Old 02-29-2008, 11:15 AM   #35
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Default Re: Evander Holyfield - How Strong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
Of course he would deny it.
Deeply-rooted Christian principles never stopped Lee Haney or Ronnie Coleman from 'turning the other cheek.' And let's not forget Holyfield trained with Lee Haney.

So you want to tell me in one year, he packed 190 lbs. onto his bench press naturally? Mate, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you...
hahaha.....Well, you make some good points as well. It's not unheard of for a good Christian to do things that are, how shall we say, a little untoward! After all, Holyfield, the good Christian soldier, never let his deeply-rooted Christian beliefs stop him from impregnating countless women outside of marriage.
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Old 02-29-2008, 12:58 PM   #36
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Default Re: Evander Holyfield - How Strong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Such gains are possible among people who are new to heavy weight training, esp. exrraordinarily gifted athletes like Holyfield obviously is.
I know Joe Average guys who've put 110 pounds on their bench press in a year when first taking up proper weight training.
Yes, but here is the difference.

Holyfield at CW was the complete opposite of an average Joe. He was already built large, cut his bodyfat very low and was extremely well conditioned. Then he still puts on 20 pounds of muscle with absolutely no fat gain under training of a bodybuilder (a.k.a. steroid expert, let's be honest here) and gains 190lbs on his bench press in a years time?

If he started from nothing, okay. But he was already heavily trained. And it's already been proven that he was taking HGH recently under the name Evan Fields.
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:37 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Yes, but here is the difference.

Holyfield at CW was the complete opposite of an average Joe. He was already built large, cut his bodyfat very low and was extremely well conditioned. Then he still puts on 20 pounds of muscle with absolutely no fat gain under training of a bodybuilder (a.k.a. steroid expert, let's be honest here) and gains 190lbs on his bench press in a years time?

If he started from nothing, okay. But he was already heavily trained.
I disagree with the gist of what you are saying.
Lots of guys who are involved in athletics, martial arts, boxing etc. and trained for years in those sports find that incorporating an intense and heavy weight training regime into their schedule will make them put on dramatic size and strength. Drugs dont explain it. It's a drastically different method of training to the ordinary training they have been doing, the over-load cannot really be simulated with other exercises, thus the training effects the body in almost an entirely new way.

For all Holyfield's muscularity at 190 pounds he was apparently only capable of benching 180 or 185 pounds when he started with the weights.

Holyfield, being a great genetic specimen, was, as far as sheer muscle bulk and strength goes, probably a lot closer to what he would be in a natural healthy but untrained state (as a cruiserweight) than you assume. He certainly wasn't starting from nothing, but the 185 bench press doesn't suggest the boxing training by itself had contributed dramatically to raw strength.

Training with a Mr.Olympia doesn't mean he took steroids. Those guys work as personal trainers and consultants with lots of guys who can afford their services, and they are experts on a lot more than just the drugs.

Like I said, I dont know if Holyfield took steroids or not. I'm just saying that his gains in muscle mass do not seem so "other-wordly" to me as to conclude drugs is the answer. The gains in mass are relatively modest.
And Holyfield looks like he could pack on a bit more, but he settled at around 215 for YEARS.
If he's a steroid-user, he's not a severe one.
Take a look at some of the others.

Quote:
And it's already been proven that he was taking HGH recently under the name Evan Fields
He may have used HGH recently. It's recommended for older guys. Stallone uses it. But that doesn't say anything about Holyfield in 1988-89.

I'm not out to defend Holyfield, but I'll defend the gains he made against claims that they are "evidence" of steroid abuse.
Packing on that sort of mass in that space of time was POSSIBLE and within the realms of normality.

You wont hear saying this about the 250 pound doorman with visible signs of steroids abuse who used to be a 150 pound pencilneck just two years ago.
I defend only what's possibly natural. And in Holyfield's case I think it's very possible to do naturally, trained athlete or not.
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Old 02-29-2008, 08:06 PM   #38
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Default Re: Evander Holyfield - How Strong?

Evander Holyfield was very strong. I remember when he picked Lennox clean off the floor like a rag doll, during a clinch in their first fight.
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Old 03-01-2008, 06:54 AM   #39
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Default Re: Evander Holyfield - How Strong?

Of course it's possible that it's natural.

I just think that given the gigantic amount of cirmcumstancial evidence, his name being linked to HGH, his heart problems, him going bald during the same period, his 20 pound of muscle gain with 0% fat gain when he was already ripped instead of an average joe, as the argument often is, the enormous gain in bench press, his cooperation with a professional steroid user, the fact that he has the little guy syndrom (trying to slug it out with larger fighters), make it pretty delusional to think he's innocent.

But hey, those Christian morals definitely helped him from not cheating on his wife.
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Old 03-01-2008, 08:12 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Of course it's possible that it's natural.

I just think that given the gigantic amount of cirmcumstancial evidence, his name being linked to HGH, his heart problems, him going bald during the same period, his 20 pound of muscle gain with 0% fat gain when he was already ripped instead of an average joe, as the argument often is, the enormous gain in bench press, his cooperation with a professional steroid user, the fact that he has the little guy syndrom (trying to slug it out with larger fighters), make it pretty delusional to think he's innocent.
Well, I fall into the camp that thinks it more likely that he did than he didn't.
But I think that's true of many of the big name heavyweights of the 80s,90s and onwards. Circumstantial evidence isn't needed, I just see lots of big powerful heavyweights and I know that steroids are rife in professional sports. In a sport as serious as big-time boxing, 'roids have to figure heavily at the elite level.
Common sense tells us that, and only those "in denial" are skeptical.

It would be naive to think guys like Lewis, Mercer, Ibeabuchi, Golota, Tua, Ruddock, the Klitschko brothers, are all entirely innocent. In my mind they are all "VERY possibly" users of anabolic 'roids or HGH.

So, yes, I basically agree. But if he did use drugs, I think it's quite possible that Holyfield never touched 'roids until sometime AFTER he went from 190 to 205-210. The "move up" to heavyweight isn't particularly suspicious, and it's it's use as the "key evidence" against him that I disagree with.
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Old 03-01-2008, 08:21 AM   #41
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Default Re: Evander Holyfield - How Strong?

SJ,

I have just skimmed through this thread so maybe I am missing something but Fist of Fury's post at the top of the page says all we need to know.

Holyfield is a drugs cheat. There are no two ways about it. The fact he is innocent is nothing more than a technicality, and a product of a legal system corrupted by money.

As for the other HWs - they may or may not have taken drugs, while Evan Fields definitely did...
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Old 03-01-2008, 08:44 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickHudson
SJ,

I have just skimmed through this thread so maybe I am missing something but Fist of Fury's post at the top of the page says all we need to know.

Holyfield is a drugs cheat. There are no two ways about it. The fact he is innocent is nothing more than a technicality, and a product of a legal system corrupted by money.

As for the other HWs - they may or may not have taken drugs, while Evan Fields definitely did...
As far as I remember, the investigation alleges that Evan Fields bought growth hormones around the time of the Larry Donald fight !
A fight he lost badly. The fight before that he lost badly to "steroid cheat" James Toney.

I dont consider steroid use a major crime or a moral outrage, so I dont really care whether Holyfield was a "cheat" or not. This is professional boxing in the 21st century, it's not college athletics from the 1930s. The world isn't a perfect place, modern athletes take drugs. I cant change that.

The point is, if Holyfield was never "caught", all the fingers would be pointing at someone who was. But in reality, Holyfield would just be another guy who "got away with it" (consider that it took him to get to 44, and a 23 year professional career before they caught him!).

The guys who dont get caught are just as guilty as those who do, and it's safe to assume that most guys dont get caught. That's why I dont make a huge fuss attacking athletes as "steroid cheats" when they get caught.

Actually, of the other names I mentioned, Vitali Klitschko failed a test for steroids back in the amateurs and was barred from going to the Olympics.
God knows what he was taking in the high stakes pro game.
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Old 03-01-2008, 09:54 AM   #43
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Default Re: Evander Holyfield - How Strong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab

Actually, of the other names I mentioned, Vitali Klitschko failed a test for steroids back in the amateurs and was barred from going to the Olympics.
God knows what he was taking in the high stakes pro game.
Funny, about Klitschko it's "who knows what he was taking in the pro game", while about Holyfield it's "well he got caught in 2002, there's no indication that he used them before that". Nice double standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Well, I fall into the camp that thinks it more likely that he did than he didn't.
But I think that's true of many of the big name heavyweights of the 80s,90s and onwards. Circumstantial evidence isn't needed, I just see lots of big powerful heavyweights and I know that steroids are rife in professional sports. In a sport as serious as big-time boxing, 'roids have to figure heavily at the elite level.
Common sense tells us that, and only those "in denial" are skeptical.
Agreed, though i wouldn't limit it to the 80's. It would be no surprise to me if for instance Foreman, Norton or even Liston used them. They were around. Just not as well known, controlled or tested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
It would be naive to think guys like Lewis, Mercer, Ibeabuchi, Golota, Tua, Ruddock, the Klitschko brothers, are all entirely innocent. In my mind they are all "VERY possibly" users of anabolic 'roids or HGH.
Yes, although Holyfield has a heap more cimcumstancial evidence against him than the names you mentioned there.
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Old 03-01-2008, 10:24 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Funny, about Klitschko it's "who knows what he was taking in the pro game", while about Holyfield it's "well he got caught in 2002, there's no indication that he used them before that". Nice double standard.
No double standard.
It's true that there must be a first time for a man to use steroids.
Dwight Qawi wants us to believe Holyfield used them in 1986. I'm sure some ex-amateur who lost to Holyfield as a kid is telling his friends it was down to steroids.

At some point Holyfield started using steroids. If we know he used them in 2004 or 2005 we can say, yes, he might have used them earlier, but of course it doesn't indicate WHEN he started.

Let's say he started at 8 years old then for argument's sake, I'm fine with that. But it's pure speculation. But on the other hand it covers all his fights, so it's kind of "fair".

Furthermore, I'll retract any implication on Vitali that I made earlier.
With Vitali, he may never have touched steroids again after getting caught before the Olympics. Using steroids as an amateur has no bearing whatsoever on what he would be prepared to do as a professional.

He only failed one test as far as I know, and never had a bald patch or a "heart condition" in the professional ranks. He was never smeared by a pseudonym allegation in an investigation, even as an amateur he only failed a drugs test.

In all likelihood he was Mr.Clean as a professional, and gave up steroids because they didn't work for him.
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Old 03-01-2008, 10:28 AM   #45
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Default Re: Evander Holyfield - How Strong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab

Furthermore, I'll retract any implication on Vitali that I made earlier.
With Vitali, he may never have touched steroids again after getting caught before the Olympics.
Jeez, so Vitali was caught using roids pre Olympics? Now i know why Z is always so keen to implicate others in roid taking.
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