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Old 02-28-2008, 11:45 PM   #31
laxpdx
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Default Re: 1980 Roberto Duran vs. Thomas Hearns @welter

This one would go down to the wire.....I can see it ending in a draw, simply because of the aforementioned reasons, that Duran was at his peak, while Hearns hadn't yet. I believe Hearns could edge it, though.
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:12 AM   #32
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Default Re: 1980 Roberto Duran vs. Thomas Hearns @welter

Quote:
Originally Posted by redrooster
Duran was the better championship fighter. By 1975 he had already gone all 15 rounds in his career; 1,2,....14, 15. Thomas didnt have the number of defenses like Duran.

Something I don't understand: why is no one gives Duran a chance, even at welter? Hagler beat Tommy quickly and Marvin is small like Roberto. Why can Marvin be successful and Roberto can't?
Hagler was 2 inches taller than Duran and had a 75 inch reach. He could take a bigger punch and was just stronger than Duran. The key to beating Tommy is being able to take his punch so you could hurt him. If you couldn't get to him, you wouldn't win.

Duran could never beat Duran because he would not be able to reach him without paying the price. He simply couldn't walk through Hearns' punches the way Hagler did, and he couldn't outbox him either. He had no chance.
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:25 AM   #33
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Default Re: 1980 Roberto Duran vs. Thomas Hearns @welter

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Originally Posted by Robbi
What he means by Duran was a "greater fighter overall" is that he was better than Hearns as an all-time great P4P. Do you have Hearns higher than Duran?
I know what you mean. I don't know if I would rate Hearns higher or not. Duran accomplished a lot. I really wish he would have tried to get the 140lb titile from Pryor before he fought Leonard. That would have told a lot. To tell you the truth, after Duran moved up in weight, his career wasn't that great. He lost a lot of fights. The Leonard fight was the best fight of his career, and he never topped that, but he was never consistent after that win. He's had some amazing wins, like the Moore and the Barkley fight, but those guys both had certain limitations. Hagler gave him way too much respect. Hearn and Benitez beat him easily, though.

Hearns had great wins at weights up 175, and beat SRL up in a rematch of past their prim fighters, even though it was a draw. I guess I would rate Tommy higher, because of his win over Virgill Hill at 175. He won more titles in a much more devastating fashion than Duran. Tommy was a much more versative fighter.
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:32 AM   #34
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Default Re: 1980 Roberto Duran vs. Thomas Hearns @welter

Wow I'm surprised at how many here think Tommy beats Roberto all the time based on "style", irrespective of weight.

I've spent the last 2 weeks watching old Hearns fights at 147 & 154 and so naturally I got to thinking about this match-up at 147.

Duran at 147 - the Duran who beat Leonard, the Duran who totally dominated Carlos Palomino, has the edge here I think.

The key to beating Tommy at 147 is to get inside and break him down. In order to do that of course you have to take some punishment from his right hand. Forget about their fight at 154 as Tommy was at his absolute peak whereas Duran was well into the second phase of his 3-phase career.

The question then is do you see Duran getting on the inside where he can play the glockenspiel on Tommy's ribcage. At the lighter weight Duran has more mobility and speed and, with his superior head movement and ringcraft, I think Roberto can get inside and work Tommy on the ropes which is one place Tommy doesn't like to be.

Harold Weston, Clyde Gray & Randy Shields all gave Tommy plenty of trouble at 147 and Duran far exceeds all of these guys in terms of boxing prowess. Duran also had a solid chin as evidenced by his only KO loss to Tommy. Hearns couldn't put Mike Colbert away even though he hit him with sledgehammer rights practically all night.

The perfect time in history for this matchup would have been after the first Duran-Leonard fight and after Hearns had destroyed Cuevas. This would have unified the Welterweight crown. The mistake Cuevas made was he fought Hearns at a distance. Duran I think would not allow this to happen and would find his way inside by the mid-rounds before roughing Tommy up on the ropes, punishing his body thus taking away his legs and ending it in the later rounds similar, though a little earlier, than Heans v Leonard I.
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:37 AM   #35
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Default Re: 1980 Roberto Duran vs. Thomas Hearns @welter

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Originally Posted by Calroid
Stonehands89......You do make valid points. However I'd still take Hearns. Just the wrong kind of fighter for Duran, Hearns was still a devastating puncher at 147lb (30 KOs in 32 fights) I think the destruction of the feared Pipino Cuevas showed that and just like Cuevas couldn't get to Hearns without paying the price neither could Duran. Any other outcome is highly unlikely IMO. As you said Leonard stayed away from Hearns in the early rounds. That wasn't Duran's style, ever!! Now if it was at lightweight it would be a different story, no way would any lightweight in history have the power to keep Duran away.
Cuevas cannot not be compared to Duran. Duran was an aggressive technician of the first order, while Cuevas was a slugger and not much else.

You are correct about Duran's not being willing to stay away like Leonard did. However you forget that such a strategy almost cost Leonard the fight and would have had he continued. When he became aggressive, he started penetrating. That tells me that Duran would penetrate earlier.
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:42 AM   #36
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Default Re: 1980 Roberto Duran vs. Thomas Hearns @welter

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Originally Posted by Sister Sledge
I don't think Duran was the better fighter than Hearns. They were both great fighters, but Hearns was capable of much more than Duran.
Hearns had the frame to compete at much higher weights. Duran had really no business over Jr. WW and none at all at MW. You also forget that Duran's prime was 1978. He was already considered a top 3 ATG LW before beating Leonard -which was among the greatest feats in the sport if you look at it objectively and in its historical context. It was frosting on the cake.

Everything after that was sprinkles on the frosting.
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:56 AM   #37
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Default Re: 1980 Roberto Duran vs. Thomas Hearns @welter

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Originally Posted by Sister Sledge
I really wish he would have tried to get the 140lb titile from Pryor before he fought Leonard.
Pryor wasn't the champion at the time Duran fought Leonard, let alone prior.

Also, Pryor was anything but a red hot commodity even after beating Cervantes. His stock went up WAY later.
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Old 02-29-2008, 10:20 AM   #38
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Default Re: 1980 Roberto Duran vs. Thomas Hearns @welter

The spontaneous response to the question is, "You kidden' me? Hearns by early KO." But dig a little deeper and the outcome possibilities get interesting. Most would agree that 1980 @ welter would be a much more competitive fight than 1984. Duran in 1980 was close to his peak physically and mentally. Hearns was a talented specimen with great KO power, yet not yet close to his peak. In 84' Hearns had developed through experience, good and bad, as well as physically, whereas Duran was well on the way down from his peak, his defensive movement just a shadow of what it once was. Still, I would favor Hearns because of his "styles make fights" advantages, and a mid-rounds KO would be a reasonable prediction. However, Duran @ that time could make life miserable for Hearns, focusing on inside fighting and lots of defensive movement to the point of where he may KO Hearns in the late rounds.

Great question though because the spontaneous answer is not so obvious when you dig into the details a bit.
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Old 02-29-2008, 10:27 AM   #39
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Default Re: 1980 Roberto Duran vs. Thomas Hearns @welter

same way it went at middle tbh
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:28 PM   #40
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Default Re: 1980 Roberto Duran vs. Thomas Hearns @welter

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Cuevas cannot not be compared to Duran. Duran was an aggressive technician of the first order, while Cuevas was a slugger and not much else.

You are correct about Duran's not being willing to stay away like Leonard did. However you forget that such a strategy almost cost Leonard the fight and would have had he continued. When he became aggressive, he started penetrating. That tells me that Duran would penetrate earlier.
I agree with your point when comparing Cuevas and Duran. Duran for the far superior technician, but still I cannot see Duran getting inside on Hearns without having to pay a huge price.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:55 PM   #41
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Default Re: 1980 Roberto Duran vs. Thomas Hearns @welter

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Originally Posted by Lobotomy
Duran's defense in Montreal was far better than what he later showed when he faced Tommy. He made SRL miss even more than Benitez and Shields. As a welterweight in his late 20s, he also dropped Monroe Brooks for the count with a bodyshot. After seeing what Hearns had just done to Cuevas, he would have been more fully prepared mentally and physically for Tommy's firepower.

Hearns could not put down the blade of grass which was a one shouldered Randy Shields (naturally a 140 pounder) despite buckling him repeatedly. (Tommy stopped Shields with repeated accidental headbutts, not punches.) One wonders what might have happened if Shields have not screwed up his shoulder in training, by tripping up while doing roadwork. (I think it may have been over a damned pothole that Randy fell. In the footage of their bout, you can see Shields repeatedly reaching back with his right arm to give his shoulder a quick massage, something that SRL, Ryan and Clancy failed to make mention of on CBS. I believe Sports Illustrated did make reference to it though.)

Roberto was certainly overconfident that Tommy could not hurt him after he'd gone 15 rounds with Hagler, especially since Hearns had not repeated the devastating nature of his ambush of Cuevas in the following four years. That would not have been Duran's mindset in 1980. Like SRL did in his unification match with Tommy, Roberto would have approached Hearns with due caution. It also needs to be remembered that if Duran had met up with Hearns immediately following Montreal, he would have still had Ray Arcel and Freddie Brown in his corner.

Tommy was too strong for an overconfident and aging Duran to handle at 154. But at 147, he wasn't quite as durable, especially to the body. Roberto would not have made the mistake of giving ground and punching room that Cuevas did. (Nor would he have been wearing slippery leather soled footwear like Pipino.) My expectation is that he would slip under Hearns, and bore into Tommy's body.

What Duran expected in 1984 was the Hearns who went the distance with Benitez, Minchillo and Sutherland, not the WW killer who dispatched Cuevas a few years earlier. In 1980, with the fresh understanding of how devastating Tommy could be, a surprisingly different outcome might have unfolded. Either Hearns wins a lopsided decision by keeping Duran away from his skinny frame, or Roberto gets him out late.

I've looked at both Hearns/Duran and Montreal while preparing this post. El Cholo took some massive shots from Ray without flinching. SRL was coming off his starching of Green, where his power had Davey Boy unconscious for several minutes. That was probably the most devastating display of power he ever displayed. Duran took all of Ray's best hooks and uppercuts. He was getting under SRL's rights. Duran showed no upper body movement against Hearns, at least not compared to what he displayed in Montreal. He was clearly fired up against SRL in a way he conspicuously was not with Tommy.

Maybe Duran lost a little incentive by his go with Hearns not being a title unification event. The fire wasn't there. He voluntarily touched gloves with Tommy after getting spun around in round one, following the caution to Hearns from Montreal referee Carlos Padilla. Upon rising from the second knockdown to end the round, he again voluntarily touched gloves with Tommy as they headed to their respective corners. (It would have been only mildly surprising to see Hearns take the hazy Duran by the arm to direct him to his own corner, considering Tommy's temperament, even in that violent situation.) As round two got under way, Hearns extended his glove for Duran to touch again, and Duran reciprocated. Roberto was most effective when he got himself to hate his opponents. He clearly held no hostility towards Hearns, but was evidently just collecting a paycheck.

As for Hearns, regardless of how he approached his foes, he was always a sportsman in the ring, very much in evidence by the glove touching gestures he initiated during their brief and violent ecounter. (I lost count of how many times he offered his gloves to Shields following all those head clashes they had.) Tommy was always an intelligent thinker while competing, very much in keeping with his Hit Man moniker. But Duran generally needed that emotional edge to be at his fiery best. (He did touch gloves at the beginning of each round with DeJesus in Panama, but in much more of a competitively energetic spirit. His conduct with Hearns was more reminiscent of what he showed with Laing.)

Perhaps Tommy would have blasted out Montreal Duran as he did Cuevas that year. But to look at what he withstood from SRL (who Tommy said hit harder than Hagler) it would have been interesting to find out for certain.

Excellent analysis. Duran in his prime had a great defense and a rock solid chin. Coming off a near upset of Boxing's best fighter (Hagler) had to be a let down for Duran. And his rock solid chin made him over confident of his ability to take a punch.
A different circumstance would have yielded a different result. If Hearns was the most dominant fighter in the game at the time, a motivated Duran would have beat Hearns body all night long.
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Old 02-29-2008, 06:24 PM   #42
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Default Re: 1980 Roberto Duran vs. Thomas Hearns @welter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Duran had really no business over Jr. WW and none at all at MW. .
Disagree Stonehands. With you stating "Duran really had no business over Jr. WW" your talking as if he was much smaller than his opponents at WW. Don't forget that Duran grew into a very large lightweight at the end of his reign.

And he wasn't exactly dwarfed by Palamino and Leonard. He could certainly compete with those fighters for power, durability, and strength. Duran's strategy and the way he fought Palamino and Leonard was all about being aggressive; physically imposing himself inside.

He proved against those opponents he wasn't out of his depth, although his overall skill level played a massive part in those wins as well.

And here is something to take note of. This isn't a direct comparison to Duran's move up, but you'll find it interesting.

Shane Mosley, as you probably know, also moved up from lightweight to welterweight. And IMO his handspeed was noticeably quicker after he moved up. I'm not saying Duran was the same. Sometimes when a fighter struggles with weight, he's slower, for obvious reasons. Mosley has recently admitted that while he was boiling himself down to lightweight he was really a natural welterweight all along. Hence the reason his handspeed looked sharper after the move up to welterweight. Against lightweights he still had the power and size advantages to knock them out.

I can mind Emanuel Steward spoke to De La Hoya's trainer, Robert Alcazar, at the weigh-in for the first Mosley encounter. Alcazar turned around to Steward and said "this guys a lightweight Manny" and Steward responded with "how can he be a lightweight he's just stepped onto the scales at 147lbs". What Steward was referring to was that Mosley and De La Hoya were the same size physically, even though Mosley had been a lightweight three fights prior to facing De La Hoya.

Last edited by Robbi; 02-29-2008 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:09 PM   #43
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Default Re: 1980 Roberto Duran vs. Thomas Hearns @welter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arminius
Excellent analysis. Duran in his prime had a great defense and a rock solid chin. Coming off a near upset of Boxing's best fighter (Hagler) had to be a let down for Duran. And his rock solid chin made him over confident of his ability to take a punch.
A different circumstance would have yielded a different result. If Hearns was the most dominant fighter in the game at the time, a motivated Duran would have beat Hearns body all night long.
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:27 PM   #44
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Default Re: 1980 Roberto Duran vs. Thomas Hearns @welter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arminius
Excellent analysis. Duran in his prime had a great defense and a rock solid chin. Coming off a near upset of Boxing's best fighter (Hagler) had to be a let down for Duran. And his rock solid chin made him over confident of his ability to take a punch.
A different circumstance would have yielded a different result. If Hearns was the most dominant fighter in the game at the time, a motivated Duran would have beat Hearns body all night long.
That also depends on Hearns' approach, which would be to keep his distance. When Duran tried to close the distance Hearns' jab would be getting shot out with regularity, and the right hand coming behind it. Hearns' maybe never moved quite as fluently as Leonard around the ring, but he posseses sufficient movement to keep Duran on the end of his punches, more often than not IMO. Duran's ability at feinting and slipping can't be overlooked here, no question. But Hearns' longer reach, speed, and power would more than likely prove too much.
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:32 PM   #45
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Default Re: 1980 Roberto Duran vs. Thomas Hearns @welter

On those citing Duran's lack of "hunger" and a killer instinct in the ring...

What about Hearn's carrying his "nice guy" mentality into the ring?

Surely he could of been far more lethal and dominating in some fights if he was there with Duran's mentality, like he had against Moore.
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