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Old 03-02-2008, 09:03 PM   #16
Mendoza
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Default Re: Final top heavyweight punchers lists. 12, 40, and 60!

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Originally Posted by mcvey
Jack Johnson rated Choynsky and Fitz as superior punchers to Jeffries,but its no surpise to me that Mendoza has Jeffries as high as he does,he is after all his biggest fan.The consensus is that Jeffries was a heavy puncher,but not a dynamite one,which I think is reflected in the amount of rounds he usually needed to stop men considerably smaller than himself,he would not make my top 12 ,let alone no 1 .Mendozas list is pretty good I feel, apart from the lack of objectivity about Jeffries.
Didn't I already list enough testimonials that Jeffries hit harder than Fitz or Dempsey? Geez. I take it none of that meant much to you a while back, even though these were the people who saw them.

Let's not confuse style and tactics with pure punching power. If Jeffries wanted to end some of his matches sooner or had less rounds to opperate in, he ups the pressure to do so. When it comes to early knockouts, lack of mobility and defense seem to play a big role, and smaller fighters tend to be more mobile and defensive. Choysnki and Corbett were tough guys to catch up to.

Once again, the lists are in a chorological order. Being #1 means nothing except that person was active before the others were.
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Old 03-03-2008, 06:56 AM   #17
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Default Re: Final top heavyweight punchers lists. 12, 40, and 60!

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Didn't I already list enough testimonials that Jeffries hit harder than Fitz or Dempsey? Geez. I take it none of that meant much to you a while back, even though these were the people who saw them.

Let's not confuse style and tactics with pure punching power. If Jeffries wanted to end some of his matches sooner or had less rounds to opperate in, he ups the pressure to do so. When it comes to early knockouts, lack of mobility and defense seem to play a big role, and smaller fighters tend to be more mobile and defensive. Choysnki and Corbett were tough guys to catch up to.

Once again, the lists are in a chorological order. Being #1 means nothing except that person was active before the others were.
No ,none of it meant much to me at all really If I had thought about it ,I would have predicted that Jeffries would figure prominently in your ratings,evidence to the contrary,you have a blind spot for him and it clouds your reason and destroys your objectivity,on any other subject you are sound and rational ,but you are so desperate to hype his reputation,,even calling exhibitions title defences,and including fights that there are no evidence that they took place.I find it strange that you can be so clear thinking on other topics ,but let your heart rule your head on Big Jeff,yellowing newsclippings are ok but they are often biased .People tell you Jeffries took a long time to stop his better opponents ,you counter that it was his style,because of the amount of rounds they went,but Fitz stopped a much more prime Corbett with one body shot in 14rds,and he was only 7 lbs over the middleweight limit,he also turned the trick against Sharkey,and there was nearly a riot when Earp ruled the punch was low,Choynsky too was a heavier puncher than Jeffries,bottom line Jeffries wore most of his challengers down before despatching them,plus the best of them were past their prime by a considerable margin.Jeffries is described as having a solid wallop,well he was about 218 in shape and hitting men up to 40 lbs lighter for the most part,no reflection on him he met who was around ,but he AINT NO KO KING!
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Old 03-03-2008, 07:30 AM   #18
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Default Re: Final top heavyweight punchers lists. 12, 40, and 60!

Jeffries never built his rep on journeyman. He pretty much fought the best out there right out of the gate. Was any fighter ever moved so quickly? It is hard to KO the best out there, yet Jeffries did so in almost all cases. What more can you ask of him?

Of course, none of what historians says matters to you in this case. I took time out to give you numerous examples. It matters not. Your mind is already made up and you are still carrying a grudge from a pervious post. Simply let it be.
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Old 03-03-2008, 08:24 AM   #19
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Default Re: Final top heavyweight punchers lists. 12, 40, and 60!

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Charles was an average puncher for heavyweights. Historians today think he did not have a good heavyweight punch and after watching most of his fights I agree. While Charles did score more KO's, it was due to his better skills , stamina, and chin, not superior punching power. I beleive Gomez hit harder. This is a pure punchers list, not a ranked punchers list.
Charles may have been an average puncher for a heavyweight CHAMPION, but hardly for a heavyweight. Give a list of heavyweights who knocked out more rated heavyweights. It would be pretty short. Patterson and Johansson did not. Schmeling did not.

"Historians today think he did not have a good heavyweight punch"

This is a rather poor appeal to authority, which is at best a logical fallacy, and a statement such as this is not even a convincing appeal to authority. Give the name of the individual historians who say it and what argument does each make. I have read many boxing historians, perhaps more than even you, and I have not found a consensus that Charles, who ko'd 14 rated heavyweights and killed a man in the ring, lacked punching power.
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Old 03-03-2008, 08:58 AM   #20
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Default Re: Final top heavyweight punchers lists. 12, 40, and 60!

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Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
Charles may have been an average puncher for a heavyweight CHAMPION, but hardly for a heavyweight. Give a list of heavyweights who knocked out more rated heavyweights. It would be pretty short. Patterson and Johansson did not. Schmeling did not.

"Historians today think he did not have a good heavyweight punch"

This is a rather poor appeal to authority, which is at best a logical fallacy, and a statement such as this is not even a convincing appeal to authority. Give the name of the individual historians who say it and what argument does each make. I have read many boxing historians, perhaps more than even you, and I have not found a consensus that Charles, who ko'd 14 rated heavyweights and killed a man in the ring, lacked punching power.
Can you name 5 people on the top 60 list that Charels hit harder then? The onus is on you.

Here were the top 60:



1. Sullivan
2. Fitzsimmons
3. Maher
4. Slavin
5. T. Shakrey
6. Jeffries
7. McVey
8. Langford
9. Wills
10. Willard
11. Fulton
12. Dempsey
13. G. Godfrey
14. Fripo
15. Schmeling
16. J. Louis
17. Lem Franklin
18. Turkey Thompson
19. M. Baer
20. B Baer
21. C. Williams
22. Ray
23. Satterfield
24. Gomez
25 Moore
26. Marciano
27. Patterson
28. Johansson
29. Liston
30. Frazier
31. Mac Foster
32 Foreman
33. Shavers
34 Lyle
35. Norton
36. Witherspoon
37. Cooney
38. Page
39 Coetzee
40. J Smith
41. Tyson
42. Bruno
43. Ruddock
44 Bowe
45. Morrison
46 Morrer
47. Briggs
48. Ibebuchi
49. Tua
50. C. Sanders
51. Hide
52. L. Lewis
53. McCall
54 Rhaman
55 Maskeav
56. V Klitschko
57. W Klitschko
58. Brewster
59. Peter
60 Virchis
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:04 AM   #21
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Default Re: Final top heavyweight punchers lists. 12, 40, and 60!

Ok, lets get back to Jeffries, I have no agenda on this and think that under certain favourable conditions he could be a match for anyone. However there is no evidence that he was a consistantly concussive puncher. Ruhlin went 20 rounds with him and quit the second time. Choynsky-who was chinny-went the distance as did Bob Armstrong. Everett was rescued by the ref and Griffin either went the distance or into round 17 the first time and survived for money by fairly dubious means the second time. He failed to stop Sharkey twice in long contests and Tom was not near as durable as his reputation now makes him out to be, largely on the basis of the Jeffries fights.
He took over twenty rounds to stop an old Corbett with an admittedly good punch but this is maybe more a testimant to his stamina and strenght than pure punching power. We are left with an old Fitz, and even older(in boxing career terms) Peter Jackson and Joe Goddard. Monroe was nothing and Kennedy he showed good punching power against. Not the resume of an ATG puncher and during his career people praised his speed, strenght, stamina, size,durability and allround skill. I cant for the life of me recall anyone claiming he was a puncher like Fitz, Sullivan, Maher, Choynski etc. They may have as I wasn't looking for it but I, for my sins, have read a lot of material from that period.
BTW I think Charles hit harder than Slavin, T.Sharkey, Thompson, Gomez but I think Galento hit harder that any of that lot, including Ez! But this is all a matter of opinion and your 60 list overall is excellent.
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:45 AM   #22
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Default Re: Final top heavyweight punchers lists. 12, 40, and 60!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Can you name 5 people on the top 60 list that Charels hit harder then? The onus is on you.

Here were the top 60:



1. Sullivan
2. Fitzsimmons
3. Maher
4. Slavin
5. T. Shakrey
6. Jeffries
7. McVey
8. Langford
9. Wills
10. Willard
11. Fulton
12. Dempsey
13. G. Godfrey
14. Fripo
15. Schmeling
16. J. Louis
17. Lem Franklin
18. Turkey Thompson
19. M. Baer
20. B Baer
21. C. Williams
22. Ray
23. Satterfield
24. Gomez
25 Moore
26. Marciano
27. Patterson
28. Johansson
29. Liston
30. Frazier
31. Mac Foster
32 Foreman
33. Shavers
34 Lyle
35. Norton
36. Witherspoon
37. Cooney
38. Page
39 Coetzee
40. J Smith
41. Tyson
42. Bruno
43. Ruddock
44 Bowe
45. Morrison
46 Morrer
47. Briggs
48. Ibebuchi
49. Tua
50. C. Sanders
51. Hide
52. L. Lewis
53. McCall
54 Rhaman
55 Maskeav
56. V Klitschko
57. W Klitschko
58. Brewster
59. Peter
60 Virchis
Obviously, all of this list are punchers but I think several don't match Charles.

1. Peter Maher--stopped 41 of 100, a lower percentage than Charles' 51 of 116. Maher had a fairly impressive resume of victims--old George Godfrey, Frank Craig, Steve O'Dennell, Frank Slavin, Joe Choynski, Joe Goddard, and John Haines--He earned his reputation as a puncher, but Charles ran up a higher ko percentage against tougher competition and has an even more imposing list of knockout victims.

2. Frank Slavin--Slavin did stop a slightly higher percentage than Charles, 42 of 81, and he has some impressive names on his ko resume, Harry Laing, Mick Dooley, Jack Burke, Jake Kilrain (2), Frank Craig, and Joe Butler--but I have rarely seen him put up as a peer of Fitz, Maher, or Peter Jackson as a puncher. Charles simply goes much deeper in ko'ing top level opposition.

3. Jess Willard--Willard has a respectable 20 of 36 ko rate, but this seems somewhat puffed to me. His competition was not consistently steller like Charles' was. More often than not, Willard went the distance with his name opponents--Luther McCarty, Gunboat Smith, Carl Morris, Arthur Pelkey, Frank Moran, Bearcat McMahon--His big ko win was over Jack Johnson in 26 rounds in a finish fight. I wouldn't give him an edge on Charles on that basis, as I think Charles would have stopped the Johnson of 1915 in a finish fight (and would have stopped Joe Louis in a finish fight in 1950). Willard's only other really impressive ko was over Floyd Johnson in 1923. Johnson was also stopped that year by Jack Renault and blown away quickly by old Harry Wills in 1925. The rest of Willard's most notable ko victories, Dan Daily, Soldier Kearns, and Boer Rodel, were over second-tier fighters. Willard did kill a man in the ring. So did Charles.

4. Elmer Ray--I have discussed him. His only really impressive ko was over Savold, and Charles stopped Ray when the two met, even though Charles was still only a lightheavy. Ray's record is padded, in my judgement, and he showed nothing like Charles' consistent power.

5. Tommy Gomez--A provincial fighter who only once broke into the top ten. Who was his biggest ko win? Muscato? Schott? Flynn? None of these men would rate among Charles top 10 ko victims and maybe not even his top 15. The weakest name on your list, in my judgement.

I left off modern pumped up reputations, such as Shannon Briggs, who has a huge ko percentage built up mainly against journeymen. I think Briggs has one ko against a rated fighter. Do Samuel Peter and Vladimir Virchis even have one knockout of a rated fighter?
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:55 AM   #23
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Default Re: Final top heavyweight punchers lists. 12, 40, and 60!

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Originally Posted by mattdonnellon
Ok, lets get back to Jeffries, I have no agenda on this and think that under certain favourable conditions he could be a match for anyone. However there is no evidence that he was a consistantly concussive puncher. Ruhlin went 20 rounds with him and quit the second time. Choynsky-who was chinny-went the distance as did Bob Armstrong. Everett was rescued by the ref and Griffin either went the distance or into round 17 the first time and survived for money by fairly dubious means the second time. He failed to stop Sharkey twice in long contests and Tom was not near as durable as his reputation now makes him out to be, largely on the basis of the Jeffries fights.
He took over twenty rounds to stop an old Corbett with an admittedly good punch but this is maybe more a testimant to his stamina and strenght than pure punching power. We are left with an old Fitz, and even older(in boxing career terms) Peter Jackson and Joe Goddard. Monroe was nothing and Kennedy he showed good punching power against. Not the resume of an ATG puncher and during his career people praised his speed, strenght, stamina, size,durability and allround skill. I cant for the life of me recall anyone claiming he was a puncher like Fitz, Sullivan, Maher, Choynski etc. They may have as I wasn't looking for it but I, for my sins, have read a lot of material from that period.
BTW I think Charles hit harder than Slavin, T.Sharkey, Thompson, Gomez but I think Galento hit harder that any of that lot, including Ez! But this is all a matter of opinion and your 60 list overall is excellent.
I want to second this excellent post. When talking of Jeff, the oldtimers focused on stamina, ruggedness, and strength, but I can't think of many who viewed him as a real first-tier puncher, and many who explicitly did not--Hype Igoe, Tad Dorgan, Jack London, Ted Carroll, and even, according to Gilbert Odd, William Brady, his manager.

I agree that the list is solid enough, especially the final twelve.
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Old 03-03-2008, 11:37 AM   #24
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Default Re: Final top heavyweight punchers lists. 12, 40, and 60!

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OLD FOGEY Obviously, all of this list are punchers but I think several don't match Charles.
Ok, let's see whatcha got

Quote:
1. Peter Maher--stopped 41 of 100, a lower percentage than Charles' 51 of 116. Maher had a fairly impressive resume of victims--old George Godfrey, Frank Craig, Steve O'Dennell, Frank Slavin, Joe Choynski, Joe Goddard, and John Haines--He earned his reputation as a puncher, but Charles ran up a higher ko percentage against tougher competition and has an even more imposing list of knockout victims.
Well, Charles had too many KO's below heavyweight division. As I said before I really don't count middle weight or light heavyweight KO's in an all time heavyweight punchers thread. While there is no film on Maher, I think it was his chin and skills, that cost him, not his power. Remember this is a pure puncher's thread here. I don't think any seasoned historians think Charles hit harder than Maher

Quote:
2. Frank Slavin--Slavin did stop a slightly higher percentage than Charles, 42 of 81, and he has some impressive names on his ko resume, Harry Laing, Mick Dooley, Jack Burke, Jake Kilrain (2), Frank Craig, and Joe Butler--but I have rarely seen him put up as a peer of Fitz, Maher, or Peter Jackson as a puncher. Charles simply goes much deeper in ko'ing top level opposition.
I think you just have not researched Slavin. Slavin was not compared to Fitz. He was compared to Jack Dempsey! Indeed, Slavin iced ranked fighters rather quickly. Savlin's power could have been on par with John L Sullivan's. Slavin ko'd Kilarian in 9. It took Sullivan 75 rounds to do the same job. Slavin also Ko'd Burke in 3. Sullivan took him the distance of 5 rounds. Slavin was the only man to stop Harry Laing in 44 known fights. No, Not a chance here. Salvin hit harder.

Quote:
3. Jess Willard--Willard has a respectable 20 of 36 ko rate, but this seems somewhat puffed to me. His competition was not consistently steller like Charles' was. More often than not, Willard went the distance with his name opponents--Luther McCarty, Gunboat Smith, Carl Morris, Arthur Pelkey, Frank Moran, Bearcat McMahon--His big ko win was over Jack Johnson in 26 rounds in a finish fight. I wouldn't give him an edge on Charles on that basis, as I think Charles would have stopped the Johnson of 1915 in a finish fight (and would have stopped Joe Louis in a finish fight in 1950). Willard's only other really impressive ko was over Floyd Johnson in 1923. Johnson was also stopped that year by Jack Renault and blown away quickly by old Harry Wills in 1925. The rest of Willard's most notable ko victories, Dan Daily, Soldier Kearns, and Boer Rodel, were over second-tier fighters. Willard did kill a man in the ring. So did Charles.
Power wise, Willard hit much harder. Skill wise they were not close. Again, this is a pure punchers thread. I don't think many would agree with you that Charles hit harder than Willard.

Quote:
4. Elmer Ray--I have discussed him. His only really impressive ko was over Savold, and Charles stopped Ray when the two met, even though Charles was still only a lightheavy. Ray's record is padded, in my judgement, and he showed nothing like Charles' consistent power.

5. Tommy Gomez--A provincial fighter who only once broke into the top ten. Who was his biggest ko win? Muscato? Schott? Flynn? None of these men would rate among Charles top 10 ko victims and maybe not even his top 15. The weakest name on your list, in my judgement.
Regarding Ray and Gomez, Ring Magazine listed them among the top 100 punchers of all time. Charles did not make the cut. Both Ray and Gomez looked like big punchers in photos. Their names came up with some other historians who looked over the list before I the final post button. Charles name never came up. Bert Sugar is a huge Charles fan. Even he says Charles power was below average at heavyweight. I agree. Charles was an active grinder, not a big puncher. I do aghree that Gomez was a tad lucky, and if I could re-do it, I might list Galento over him.

Quote:
I left off modern pumped up reputations, such as Shannon Briggs, who has a huge ko percentage built up mainly against journeymen. I think Briggs has one ko against a rated fighter. Do Samuel Peter and Vladimir Virchis even have one knockout of a rated fighter?
On film, Briggs, Peter, and Virchis hit harder. To compare and contrast side by side eaisly favors these modern fighters. I'll assume you have seen some of Peter's Ko's. If you haven't seen Virchis he's a heavy handed guy. Virchis is a a real thumper who knocked out a guy with a jab al la Sonny Liston. He produced a dramatic ten count vs Bidenko with one of the hardest right hands you will see. In general Virchis only needs one or two big shots to hurt / finish whomever he lands on. Vitlai Klitschko doesn't talk much about other fighters, but said Virchis was the hardest puncher he ever fought ( Vitlai defeated him in the amateurs ).
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Old 03-03-2008, 01:24 PM   #25
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Default Re: Final top heavyweight punchers lists. 12, 40, and 60!

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Jeffries never built his rep on journeyman. He pretty much fought the best out there right out of the gate. Was any fighter ever moved so quickly? It is hard to KO the best out there, yet Jeffries did so in almost all cases. What more can you ask of him?

Of course, none of what historians says matters to you in this case. I took time out to give you numerous examples. It matters not. Your mind is already made up and you are still carrying a grudge from a pervious post. Simply let it be.
I gave Jeffries his dues ,he didnt duck anyone,I just dont see him as a concussive puncher ,and from the looks of things neither do most of the other posters on here,[see Mattdonnelons excellent summary],and Old Fogey agrees.For the record Im not harbouring a grudge against you,I have no reason to ,we had an argument that got a bit personal at times ,thats behind us now for my part,Ive been complimentary towards you when it was merited,I just stated what I beleive,that your admiration for Jeffries had clouded your judgement regarding his power,not a crime,there are worse Champions to admire , as you say he fought good men while still comparatively young ,he was a very brave ,durable honest Champion ,undoubtedly the best of his time,and arguably top 10 ,but imo a ko king he was not.Peace!
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Old 03-03-2008, 02:33 PM   #26
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Default Re: Final top heavyweight punchers lists. 12, 40, and 60!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Ok, let's see whatcha got



Well, Charles had too many KO's below heavyweight division. As I said before I really don't count middle weight or light heavyweight KO's in an all time heavyweight punchers thread. While there is no film on Maher, I think it was his chin and skills, that cost him, not his power. Remember this is a pure puncher's thread here. I don't think any seasoned historians think Charles hit harder than Maher


I think you just have not researched Slavin. Slavin was not compared to Fitz. He was compared to Jack Dempsey! Indeed, Slavin iced ranked fighters rather quickly. Savlin's power could have been on par with John L Sullivan's. Slavin ko'd Kilarian in 9. It took Sullivan 75 rounds to do the same job. Slavin also Ko'd Burke in 3. Sullivan took him the distance of 5 rounds. Slavin was the only man to stop Harry Laing in 44 known fights. No, Not a chance here. Salvin hit harder.


Power wise, Willard hit much harder. Skill wise they were not close. Again, this is a pure punchers thread. I don't think many would agree with you that Charles hit harder than Willard.



Regarding Ray and Gomez, Ring Magazine listed them among the top 100 punchers of all time. Charles did not make the cut. Both Ray and Gomez looked like big punchers in photos. Their names came up with some other historians who looked over the list before I the final post button. Charles name never came up. Bert Sugar is a huge Charles fan. Even he says Charles power was below average at heavyweight. I agree. Charles was an active grinder, not a big puncher. I do aghree that Gomez was a tad lucky, and if I could re-do it, I might list Galento over him.



On film, Briggs, Peter, and Virchis hit harder. To compare and contrast side by side eaisly favors these modern fighters. I'll assume you have seen some of Peter's Ko's. If you haven't seen Virchis he's a heavy handed guy. Virchis is a a real thumper who knocked out a guy with a jab al la Sonny Liston. He produced a dramatic ten count vs Bidenko with one of the hardest right hands you will see. In general Virchis only needs one or two big shots to hurt / finish whomever he lands on. Vitlai Klitschko doesn't talk much about other fighters, but said Virchis was the hardest puncher he ever fought ( Vitlai defeated him in the amateurs ).
1. Charles did fight briefly in the middleweight division and for a number of years as a lightheavyweight. More than half--27--of his career knockouts were against heavyweights, fighters weighing 176 or more. He knocked out 14 men who were at one time or another rated heavys, and only Moore, at 173, was a lightheavy at the time. The other 13 all weighed over 180, with two over 200 and 3 more over 190. He also knocked out 200 plus trial horses Walter Hafer, John Haynes, Frank Buford, and Bob Albright.
Neither Maher nor Slavin came close to matching this record. Maher himself was smaller than Charles (5' 11" to 6' & weighing as little as 172 as late as 1900) and his opponents were also smaller. Of his name victims, Frank Craig was 150 odd pounds, old George Godfrey was 5' 10" and 170 to 175, Joe Choynski was a 165 pounder at most.
2. When the old Police Gazette used to bring up Slavin, they never mentioned Jack Dempsey. Slavin could punch, but lets not get ridiculous. He had impressive knockouts of an aging Kilrain, but was himself stopped the following year by Jackson and a couple of years later by Bob Armstrong. You are also the first in my experience to rate him ahead of Fitz as a puncher. It is a fact that he ko'd no where near as many top men as Charles.
3. Willard--Just saying he was a terrific puncher does not exactly make it true, but it is true that most of the name fighters who got in the ring with him were not stopped, and 12 of his 20 knockouts came against men who had a TOTAL of 9 listed wins between them. I give him credit for stopping Jack Johnson, even if Jack was old, fat, and running out of gas, but there is no there there when discussing Willard as a top puncher.
4. Ring Magazine ranked Jersey Joe Walcott ahead of Buddy Baer, Razor Ruddock, Tommy Gomez, Evander Holyfield, Luis Angel Firpo, Fred Fulton, and Ingemar Johansson as a puncher on their list. Do you?
Why bring up that list for Charles? I think Charles should have been on the Ring's list.
5. I will leave the modern guys go. I know the argument is that even though they have done nothing they are fantastic punchers because they are pumped up to 250+ pounds with steroids and HGH. The fact remains that Virchis has yet to stop anyone close to being a rated fighter and he is already 34.
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Old 03-03-2008, 03:04 PM   #27
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Default Re: Final top heavyweight punchers lists. 12, 40, and 60!

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OLD FOGEY 1. Charles did fight briefly in the middleweight division and for a number of years as a lightheavyweight. More than half--27--of his career knockouts were against heavyweights, fighters weighing 176 or more. He knocked out 14 men who were at one time or another rated heavys, and only Moore, at 173, was a lightheavy at the time. The other 13 all weighed over 180, with two over 200 and 3 more over 190. He also knocked out 200 plus trial horses Walter Hafer, John Haynes, Frank Buford, and Bob Albright.

Neither Maher nor Slavin came close to matching this record. Maher himself was smaller than Charles (5' 11" to 6' & weighing as little as 172 as late as 1900) and his opponents were also smaller. Of his name victims, Frank Craig was 150 odd pounds, old George Godfrey was 5' 10" and 170 to 175, Joe Choynski was a 165 pounder at most.
A few things on Charles. His career KO % is 43.96%. This is very, very low, and he didnít exactly ko hall of fame heavyweights, aside from Moore who might have been a light heavy when they fought.



The rated heavies Charles knocked out were not a durable group in general. Men like Ray, Bivins, and a ruined Layne were Charles best Ko's. Good, but not great. Charles also failed to stop many journeyman as a heavy.


From 1946-1954 fighters like 19-6 Hubert, 32-13-3 Smith, 37-9-2 Sarlin, 17-4-2 Matisi, 18-23-5 Randloph, 39-13-3 Salrin, and 29-15-2 Gilliam went the distance with Charles, and I do not think any of these people were ranked. They sound like Journeyman to me. Chalres did not stop them in distance fights..

Quote:
2. When the old Police Gazette used to bring up Slavin, they never mentioned Jack Dempsey. Slavin could punch, but lets not get ridiculous. He had impressive knockouts of an aging Kilrain, but was himself stopped the following year by Jackson and a couple of years later by Bob Armstrong. You are also the first in my experience to rate him ahead of Fitz as a puncher. It is a fact that he ko'd no where near as many top men as Charles.
WHOA. I never said Slavin hits harder than Fitz, I said he was compared to Jack Dempsey.

From the cyber boxing zone " Slavin was a rushing, moving, boxer-puncher with skill and an extremely hard punch in either hand; He was much like Jack Dempsey, the heavyweight champion, in his skills, ability to take punishment, and killer-instinct "

Slavin was pretty much washed up around 1895, much like Charles was post Marciano. Sullivan never dared to fight Slavin. The police gazette had Slavin as their champ.

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3. Willard--Just saying he was a terrific puncher does not exactly make it true, but it is true that most of the name fighters who got in the ring with him were not stopped, and 12 of his 20 knockouts came against men who had a TOTAL of 9 wins between them. I give him credit for stopping Jack Johnson, even if Jack was old, fat, and running out of gas, but there is no there when discussing Willard as a top puncher.
I disagree here. Willard was a big puncher. Skills, not power held him back.

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4. Ring Magazine ranked Jersey Joe Walcott ahead of Buddy Baer, Razor Ruddock, Tommy Gomez, Evander Holyfield, Luis Angel Firpo, Fred Fulton, and Ingemar Johansson as a puncher on their list. Do you?

Why bring up that list for Charles? I think Charles should have been on the Ring's list.
I brought up Gomez and Ray because they made the cut and Charles did not. The Rings top 100 punchers were done in a pound for pound sense, so Charles at 180-285 did not hit harder in a pound for pound sense than any of the above fighters in the opinion of Ring Magazine. I think Walcott hit harder than Charles, and he did not make the cut in the top 60. I also think Holyfield hit harder than Charles, and he did not make the cut in the top 60 either! All the others mentioned did.

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5. I will leave the modern guys go. I know the argument is that even though they have done nothing they are fantastic punchers because they are pumped up to 250+ pounds with steroids and HGH. The fact remains that Virchis has yet to stop anyone close to being a rated fighter and he is already 34.
Watch them on film, and you'll see. If these modern people were matched vs the people Charles fought, I beleive they would need to land far less punches to stop them.
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Old 03-03-2008, 04:30 PM   #28
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Default Re: Final top heavyweight punchers lists. 12, 40, and 60!

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A few things on Charles. His career KO % is 43.96%. This is very, very low, and he didn’t exactly ko hall of fame heavyweights, aside from Moore who might have been a light heavy when they fought.



The rated heavies Charles knocked out were not a durable group in general. Men like Ray, Bivins, and a ruined Layne were Charles best Ko's. Good, but not great. Charles also failed to stop many journeyman as a heavy.


From 1946-1954 fighters like 19-6 Hubert, 32-13-3 Smith, 37-9-2 Sarlin, 17-4-2 Matisi, 18-23-5 Randloph, 39-13-3 Salrin, and 29-15-2 Gilliam went the distance with Charles, and I do not think any of these people were ranked. They sound like Journeyman to me. Chalres did not stop them in distance fights..



WHOA. I never said Slavin hits harder than Fitz, I said he was compared to Jack Dempsey.

From the cyber boxing zone " Slavin was a rushing, moving, boxer-puncher with skill and an extremely hard punch in either hand; He was much like Jack Dempsey, the heavyweight champion, in his skills, ability to take punishment, and killer-instinct "

Slavin was pretty much washed up around 1895, much like Charles was post Marciano. Sullivan never dared to fight Slavin. The police gazette had Slavin as their champ.



I disagree here. Willard was a big puncher. Skills, not power held him back.



I brought up Gomez and Ray because they made the cut and Charles did not. The Rings top 100 punchers were done in a pound for pound sense, so Charles at 180-285 did not hit harder in a pound for pound sense than any of the above fighters in the opinion of Ring Magazine. I think Walcott hit harder than Charles, and he did not make the cut in the top 60. I also think Holyfield hit harder than Charles, and he did not make the cut in the top 60 either! All the others mentioned did.



Watch them on film, and you'll see. If these modern people were matched vs the people Charles fought, I beleive they would need to land far less punches to stop them.
B. Of the group that went the distance with Charles:
1. Tommy Hubert--Went 10 in Charles second fight back after 3 years in the service. Hubert survived 4 knockdowns in the 10th round. This would be a ko today. Charles stopped Hubert in a rematch a few months later.
2. Billy Smith--This is no journeyman. Smith was rated among the top 10 lightheavies six times between 1945 and 1954 and had knockout victories over Lloyd Marshall, Bob Foxworth, and Harold Johnson. Beating him by decision was no disgrace, but Charles stopped him in a rematch a few months later.
3. Erv Sarlin--Another one-time rated lightheavy, Sarlin was durable and had never been stopped when Charles fought him. He would for his career be stopped 1 time in 57 fights, by top ten heavy Rusty Payne in his last fight.
4. Teddy Randolph--a trial-horse type noted for being durable. Only Archie Moore stopped him in 52 fights.
5. Bill Gilliam--6' 2" 210 lb heavy who fought the best pretty consistently. He was stopped twice in 59 bouts, on TKO's to top five heavies Bob Baker and Coley Wallace. Posted wins over Baker, Nino Valdes, Hein Ten Hoff, Leonard Morrow, Omelio Agramonte, and Willie Bean.
This doesn't really seem to be as mediocre a bunch as you imply. I would note also that Charles fought 43 different men from 1946 to 1954, some several times, and ko'd 32 of them.
B. The heavies Charles ko'd were not a particularly durable bunch, but they were somewhat better than you imply. Charles was the only man to ko Baksi. He was the only man to put the durable Valentino down for the count. He was one of only three men to stop Bivins, the others being Moore and monstrous hitter Lem Franklin. Layne was coming off the ko to Marciano, but still had some good fights in him. Wallace was big, young, and a contender.
C. Also, how many really durable opponents did Willard ko? Or Maher? or Gomez?
D. I still think the comparision of Dempsey and Slavin is odd. For example, the 'ability to take punishment'--Dempsey was stopped once. Slavin 10 times. Quite a gap.
E. There is no evidence Willard was a big puncher. You are not giving any.
F. Who makes the cut and does not make the cut depends on your own rankings. I think Charles should have made the Ring Magazine list. According to the Boxing Register, Sugar Ray Robinson ko'd 18 of 62 rated opponents. Charles ko'd 20 of 58, a better percentage. Few doubt Robinson was a deadly puncher.

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Old 03-03-2008, 05:12 PM   #29
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Default Re: Final top heavyweight punchers lists. 12, 40, and 60!

Maher's record is very decieving as it appears in Boxrec.At least five of his "Points" wins were in fact ko's while another 5 of his pts wins were actually amature fights. In Boxrec this would change his kos to 46 in 56 wins. But this is only the tip of the ice-berg as Maher did 4 barn-storming tours( 2 in usa and 2 in Ireland) which would give him at least 100 more victories, allmost all of them by ko. Jack Bonner, Ruhlin, Jack King, Nick Burley were listed amongst these fighters so not all were ham-and -eggers though undoubtedly many of them were. Factor in the fact that Peter fought on for over ten years past his prime and you realise that ko % as from boxrec means little in his case.
Also not all of Maher's opponents were pygmies; Morris Harris, Dunkhorst, CC Smith, Klondike, Slavin, Goddard, Kennedy, Yank Kenny, O'Donnell, Russell,Jim Jeffords were all HW's over six foot. It can't really be held against Maher if some of the fellows he ko'd were small or light, he could do no more than knock them senseless.
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:19 PM   #30
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Default Re: Final top heavyweight punchers lists. 12, 40, and 60!

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Maher's record is very decieving as it appears in Boxrec.At least five of his "Points" wins were in fact ko's while another 5 of his pts wins were actually amature fights. In Boxrec this would change his kos to 46 in 56 wins. But this is only the tip of the ice-berg as Maher did 4 barn-storming tours( 2 in usa and 2 in Ireland) which would give him at least 100 more victories, allmost all of them by ko. Jack Bonner, Ruhlin, Jack King, Nick Burley were listed amongst these fighters so not all were ham-and -eggers though undoubtedly many of them were. Factor in the fact that Peter fought on for over ten years past his prime and you realise that ko % as from boxrec means little in his case.
Also not all of Maher's opponents were pygmies; Morris Harris, Dunkhorst, CC Smith, Klondike, Slavin, Goddard, Kennedy, Yank Kenny, O'Donnell, Russell,Jim Jeffords were all HW's over six foot. It can't really be held against Maher if some of the fellows he ko'd were small or light, he could do no more than knock them senseless.
I don't really want to imply that Maher's opponents were small men--only that off the evidence, Charles fought larger men at heavyweight.
And I know boxrec is not all that accurate, especially when you get back over a century. I do think Charles is getting short-changed as a puncher and certainly should have made a top 60 list and probably a top 40 list.
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