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Old 02-29-2008, 01:28 PM   #1
Sonny's jab
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Default Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

Of all the fighters you generally see people rating very highly, which ones are those that you personally feel are overrated ?

Another way of viewing it is - who do you UNDERrate ?

For me, it's Lennox Lewis.
I was shocked when I saw most people here rating him in the TOP THREE TO FIVE heavyweights of all-time !
It's something I just dont get.

To me, he was big and strong and powerful but an awfully clumsy fighter even at his best, and despite his massive size he was beatable with one solid punch. He knew how to get the job done against the limited opposition he had to contend with, but I dont see what other people see.
"A good mover", "a great jabber", "a great boxer-puncher" ..... I dont see any of that.
An awkward powerhouse with a cautious approach is how I'd' describe him.

Dont get me wrong, he's one of the best of the last two or three decades, his record speaks for itself, but I dont rate him highly as most others here do.

Going back further, I think Jim Jeffries and Jack Johnson might be overrated by some here. I dont know, because we cant really say for sure with the lack of clear film, but they both seem to get too much credit for wins over aging guys coming off long layoffs.

The same people who will tell you "I've seen fighter X (from the 1940s) on film and I wasn't impressed" will then tell you how impressive some guy was in some fight from 1900 was because they read it somewhere. That's how some of those old-timers from pre-filmed days MIGHT be getting overrated.
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Old 02-29-2008, 01:32 PM   #2
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

The answer to both of these questions is Rocky Marciano for me.

I want to like Rocky but he just looks - shite.
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Old 02-29-2008, 01:46 PM   #3
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Of all the fighters you generally see people rating very highly, which ones are those that you personally feel are overrated ?

Another way of viewing it is - who do you UNDERrate ?

For me, it's Lennox Lewis.
I was shocked when I saw most people here rating him in the TOP THREE TO FIVE heavyweights of all-time !
It's something I just dont get.

To me, he was big and strong and powerful but an awfully clumsy fighter even at his best, and despite his massive size he was beatable with one solid punch. He knew how to get the job done against the limited opposition he had to contend with, but I dont see what other people see.
"A good mover", "a great jabber", "a great boxer-puncher" ..... I dont see any of that.
An awkward powerhouse with a cautious approach is how I'd' describe him.

Dont get me wrong, he's one of the best of the last two or three decades, his record speaks for itself, but I dont rate him highly as most others here do.

Going back further, I think Jim Jeffries and Jack Johnson might be overrated by some here. I dont know, because we cant really say for sure with the lack of clear film, but they both seem to get too much credit for wins over aging guys coming off long layoffs.

The same people who will tell you "I've seen fighter X (from the 1940s) on film and I wasn't impressed" will then tell you how impressive some guy was in some fight from 1900 was because they read it somewhere. That's how some of those old-timers from pre-filmed days MIGHT be getting overrated.
You also under-rate the great Andrew Golota.






For me, it has to be Sonny Liston or Jack Dempsey.
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Old 02-29-2008, 01:47 PM   #4
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

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Originally Posted by McGrain
The answer to both of these questions is Rocky Marciano for me.

I want to like Rocky but he just looks - shite.
Shite in what way ?

Last edited by siablo14; 03-09-2007 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 02-29-2008, 01:53 PM   #5
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Shite in what way ?
Clumsy.

Small.

Innacurate.

Open.

Odd competition (some very good fighters, but none at their best, no cracking big men)

If you show me a list of great heavyweights I can't pick him to beat any of them, honestly, for 2/3. Let's say a top 15 or something.

Now, your own excellent arguments, Luigi's input and Chris' wonderful video mean that Rocky has actually bullied his way into my top ten (ESB in action) but I still feel disgust when I see him at #3 on some HW list, top 30 on some p4p lists...so I see him as grossly overated.

ON THE OTHER HAND, a load of smart guys rate him higher than me...so I fear I may underate him.
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Old 02-29-2008, 01:56 PM   #6
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

I tend to think Joe Walcott is overrated both as a puncher and as a champion. Here is a guy who had an overly assorted mixed bag of wins and losses to fighters who ranged anywhere from good to terrible. His KO percentage against fighters under 200 Lbs is not terribly impressive. He fought Ezzard charles ( a former middleweight ) 4 times, losing the first two and winning the next two. In a total of 4 contests with Ezzard, he scores a single knockout against a pseudo heavyweight, and all of a sudden he's a "big puncher" I often think that Walcott's resume is given extra points, simply because he gave two icons ( Marciano and Louis), a great deal of trouble. In my opinion, Walcott's blown up credentials are an effort to preserve Louis and Marciano's legacy rather than Walcott's himself. It's probably the best example of the application of circular logic in the sport's history.....
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Old 02-29-2008, 01:57 PM   #7
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

Jack Dempsey.
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:49 PM   #8
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Clumsy.

Small.

Innacurate.

Open.

Odd competition (some very good fighters, but none at their best, no cracking big men)

If you show me a list of great heavyweights I can't pick him to beat any of them, honestly, for 2/3. Let's say a top 15 or something.

Now, your own excellent arguments, Luigi's input and Chris' wonderful video mean that Rocky has actually bullied his way into my top ten (ESB in action) but I still feel disgust when I see him at #3 on some HW list, top 30 on some p4p lists...so I see him as grossly overated.

ON THE OTHER HAND, a load of smart guys rate him higher than me...so I fear I may underate him.
Yeah, it's interesting how perceptions differ.

I dont see the Marciano of the championship years as clumsy at all, definitely not anywhere near as clumsy as Lennox Lewis.

I dont see him as being particularly open. For a guy with such short arms he's ingeniously defensive.

I dont consider "small" a drawback.
And I think his competition was very good.

So, I just dont see what you see.
Thus I might have to rate him in my top 3, because I cant fault his record.
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:57 PM   #9
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

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Originally Posted by Holmes' Jab
Jack Dempsey.
I consider him to be verry much under rated head to head.

Honestly he could spank just about anybody on their best day.
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:59 PM   #10
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
I tend to think Joe Walcott is overrated both as a puncher and as a champion. Here is a guy who had an overly assorted mixed bag of wins and losses to fighters who ranged anywhere from good to terrible. His KO percentage against fighters under 200 Lbs is not terribly impressive. He fought Ezzard charles ( a former middleweight ) 4 times, losing the first two and winning the next two. In a total of 4 contests with Ezzard, he scores a single knockout against a pseudo heavyweight, and all of a sudden he's a "big puncher" I often think that Walcott's resume is given extra points, simply because he gave two icons ( Marciano and Louis), a great deal of trouble. In my opinion, Walcott's blown up credentials are an effort to preserve Louis and Marciano's legacy rather than Walcott's himself. It's probably the best example of the application of circular logic in the sport's history.....
Another completely different perspective to mine.
I tend to think Walcott is UNDERrated.

Walcott looks damned good on film to me. That's my starting point.
And I certainly dont rate him highly to inflate Joe Louis, because I kind of wish Walcott beat him twice. It's the fact that Walcott got KO'd by the old Louis that puts any doubt at all into my mind that he wasn't great. But perhaps I forget what a truly deadly puncher Louis was.

As for Walcott as a puncher, it's hard to watch the Charles KO and dismiss him as anything but a wicked puncher.
He wasn't a KO artist, as you say he generally didn't score those KO wins, but he landed plenty of hard punches, scored plenty of knockdowns, and just had a hurtful hard solid look to his delivery style. He wasn't throwing creampuffs in there, that's for sure.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:06 PM   #11
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

Overrated:

Roy Jones jr. - Great ability but safety-first style. Seldom took risks and let some inferior opposition hang around too long in fights. Chin proved later on to be suspect. Was the Wladimir Klitschko of his time. Great fighter and effective but safety first all the way. I don't hear anyone calling Klitschko an all time great as they often do Jones.


Sugar Ray Robinson - People always show him kayoing Fullmer with one shot. They seldom mention that Fullmer beat beat Robinson twice and had one draw. He was the greatest welterweight ever but he is overrated at MW IMO.

Harry Wills - The revisionists frequently mention Wills being "ducked" by Dempsey. Complete nonsense. The fight was signed and fell through for financial reasons and the generally racist attitude of the day. If the fight was not going to be financially advantageous then why would Dempsey or Wills want it to happen? Wills was being handily beaten by Jack Sharkey before fouling out in 1926.

Muhammad Ali - Was probably the best HW ever based on his opposition and who he beat. But the greatest fighter of all-time? That mantra was not exactly correct.

Sugar Ray Leonard - Lost the second fight to Hearns, may have really lost to Hagler, was dropped by a journeyman named Donny LaLonde before coming back to win. Was thrashed by Terry Norris and knocked out by the light-hitting Hector Camacho in his final fight. Great fighter but too many blemishes and the Hagler fight was very contraversial.


Underrated:

Sam Langford - At just 5-7 and about 180lbs. frequently took down heavyweights. Was avoided by Dempsey's people early in Jack's career. May have very well been the real greatest of all-time.

Benny Leonard - The Ghetto wizard may have even been a better lightweight than the great Roberto Duran. He was the best PFP of his day in a time when boxing was the undisputed #1 sport in america.

Jimmy Wilde - The pint-sized Welshman was considered to be the greatest puncher of all-time for his size by many who watched him.

Eder Jofre - Brazillian great is still grossly overlooked. People tend to mention more Monzon, Chavez, Duran, etc, in the pantheon of South American greats. This man is right there with them IMO.

Charley Burly - Archie Moore claims he was the best he ever fought. Avoided like the plague during the time because of racial prejudice and because he just made great fighters look inept.

Rocky Marciano - Only undefeated HW champ is denigrated for being around during weak era. Walcott, Charles, Louis, Moore are ATG's and hall of famers. Rocky cleaned out division on the was up beating fine fighters like Vingo, LaStarza (twice), Savold, Layne, an the excellent LHWT Harry "kid" Mathews.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:09 PM   #12
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Of all the fighters you generally see people rating very highly, which ones are those that you personally feel are overrated ?

Another way of viewing it is - who do you UNDERrate ?

For me, it's Lennox Lewis.
I was shocked when I saw most people here rating him in the TOP THREE TO FIVE heavyweights of all-time !
It's something I just dont get.

To me, he was big and strong and powerful but an awfully clumsy fighter even at his best, and despite his massive size he was beatable with one solid punch. He knew how to get the job done against the limited opposition he had to contend with, but I dont see what other people see.
"A good mover", "a great jabber", "a great boxer-puncher" ..... I dont see any of that.
An awkward powerhouse with a cautious approach is how I'd' describe him.

Dont get me wrong, he's one of the best of the last two or three decades, his record speaks for itself, but I dont rate him highly as most others here do.

Going back further, I think Jim Jeffries and Jack Johnson might be overrated by some here. I dont know, because we cant really say for sure with the lack of clear film, but they both seem to get too much credit for wins over aging guys coming off long layoffs.

The same people who will tell you "I've seen fighter X (from the 1940s) on film and I wasn't impressed" will then tell you how impressive some guy was in some fight from 1900 was because they read it somewhere. That's how some of those old-timers from pre-filmed days MIGHT be getting overrated.
I completely agree on Lewis (except, for the note, actually the poll had about half having him in the top 5 and 80% having him in the top 10- I counted carefully because I was so surprised), and somewhat on Johnson/Jeffries.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:10 PM   #13
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

I know the second Leonard-Hearns was called a draw. Leonard had Hearns in trouble at the end but still really deserved to lose IMO.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:11 PM   #14
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Another completely different perspective to mine.
I tend to think Walcott is UNDERrated.

Walcott looks damned good on film to me. That's my starting point.
And I certainly dont rate him highly to inflate Joe Louis, because I kind of wish Walcott beat him twice. It's the fact that Walcott got KO'd by the old Louis that puts any doubt at all into my mind that he wasn't great. But perhaps I forget what a truly deadly puncher Louis was.

As for Walcott as a puncher, it's hard to watch the Charles KO and dismiss him as anything but a wicked puncher.
He wasn't a KO artist, as you say he generally didn't score those KO wins, but he landed plenty of hard punches, scored plenty of knockdowns, and just had a hurtful hard solid look to his delivery style. He wasn't throwing creampuffs in there, that's for sure.
i don't think his punches were creampuffs either, but I steadfastly hold to my claim that he was not a big puncher. If John Ruiz had k'od Roy Jones would we be sitting here ranting and raving about what a huge puncher he was? I know I certainly wouldn't be. Jersey was a good fighter, but his name is brought up a bit too often when discussing all time greats in my opinion.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:14 PM   #15
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

Gene Tunney deserves mention for being underrated as does the great Ezzard Charles.
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