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Old 02-29-2008, 03:41 PM   #16
Sonny's jab
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
i don't think his punches were creampuffs either, but I steadfastly hold to my claim that he was not a big puncher. If John Ruiz had k'od Roy Jones would we be sitting here ranting and raving about what a huge puncher he was?
Ezzard Charles hadn't been stopped in years, and certainly never by one quick devastating hook like that.
Charles hadn't been been stopped by big-punching Elmer Ray, and went on to take untold shots from Rocky Marciano.
The punch is a classic, and Charles was durable.

I dont get the Ruiz-Jones comparison but that doesn't matter because I dont think I'm one of the ones who's ranting about Walcott's power punching.
To me, it's just a sidenote - Walcott could punch pretty good - but it's not big thing. He wasn't a massive KO artist.

Guys who fought him reckoned him a good puncher.

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I know I certainly wouldn't be. Jersey was a good fighter, but his name is brought up a bit too often when discussing all time greats in my opinion
Fair enough.
I hold the opposite opinion. I think he's not mentioned enough.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:47 PM   #17
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

Georges Carpentier. Some people have him in Top 20, which is just crazy.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:48 PM   #18
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

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Originally Posted by Senya13
Georges Carpentier. Some people have him in Top 20, which is just crazy.
Why crazy?

He is clearly a great light heavyweight and perhaps a great pound for pound fighter.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:53 PM   #19
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
I dont see the Marciano of the championship years as clumsy at all
The ****ell fight?


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I dont see him as being particularly open. For a guy with such short arms he's ingeniously defensive.
"Easy to hit but hard to hit clean" is my favourite quote concerning the subject. But that's the point. Foreman? Lewis? Ruddock? Surely these guys hitting Marciano 2/3, 1/2 is a different matter to Walcott doing the same?

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I dont consider "small" a drawback.
Well, it is, and it obviously is. BUT, it's not definitive. It's there to be overcome, same as poor instincts, short arms, poor chin, whatever.

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And I think his competition was very good.
It was. But I stand by what I said - no cracking big men.

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Thus I might have to rate him in my top 3, because I cant fault his record.
Pah!
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:53 PM   #20
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

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Originally Posted by Sardu
Overrated:

Roy Jones jr. - Great ability but safety-first style. Seldom took risks and let some inferior opposition hang around too long in fights. Chin proved later on to be suspect. Was the Wladimir Klitschko of his time. Great fighter and effective but safety first all the way. I don't hear anyone calling Klitschko an all time great as they often do Jones.
Jones is mostly ranked on dominance and skill level rather than resume, you could say the same for Jofre, who you consider underrated.

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Sugar Ray Leonard - Lost the second fight to Hearns, may have really lost to Hagler, was dropped by a journeyman named Donny LaLonde before coming back to win. Was thrashed by Terry Norris and knocked out by the light-hitting Hector Camacho in his final fight. Great fighter but too many blemishes and the Hagler fight was very contraversial.
Most of those blemishes came past his prime, such as his losses to Norris and especially Camacho, which wasn't even worth mentioning. Duran is intensely overrated if that's the way you want to judge, given all of his losses. His wins far surpassed his losses, especially considering he only had one in his prime.

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Underrated:

Sam Langford - At just 5-7 and about 180lbs. frequently took down heavyweights. Was avoided by Dempsey's people early in Jack's career. May have very well been the real greatest of all-time.
Most consider him a top 5 to top 10 ATG.

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Jimmy Wilde - The pint-sized Welshman was considered to be the greatest puncher of all-time for his size by many who watched him.
You wanna talk about a lack of resume?

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Eder Jofre - Brazillian great is still grossly overlooked. People tend to mention more Monzon, Chavez, Duran, etc, in the pantheon of South American greats. This man is right there with them IMO.
His resume doesn't stack up, but his skills do, as does his career for the lower weights.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:59 PM   #21
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

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Originally Posted by janitor
Why crazy?

He is clearly a great light heavyweight and perhaps a great pound for pound fighter.
A popular fighter, but a rather poor boxer with few good accomplishments, and even those that are "good" are mostly tainted by one thing or another, non-existing fouls by his opponents, or the referee not noticing his fouls. A clown with good management, that has no placement anywhere in Top 15 light-heavyweight ratings, even less so in any other weight division.
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:25 PM   #22
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

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Originally Posted by McGrain
The ****ell fight?
Yeah, he looked a bit clumsy there. He was at his best against the best. Other champions were like that too.

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"Easy to hit but hard to hit clean" is my favourite quote concerning the subject. But that's the point. Foreman? Lewis? Ruddock? Surely these guys hitting Marciano 2/3, 1/2 is a different matter to Walcott doing the same?
And you can bet your life Rocky will be hitting them back.
Any guy you can name who "could" knock out Rocky, you can write that same name down under "Rocky "could" knock out ...". It cuts both ways.
I dont think Rocky was any more vulnerable to being hurt and KO'd than any other.

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Well, it is, and it obviously is. BUT, it's not definitive. It's there to be overcome, same as poor instincts, short arms, poor chin, whatever.
Rocky's success was built on overcoming his "smallness", or using it to his advantage. His style was the short, short-armed, squat guy style. Bigger guys might be able to hold him at bay, or smother him like an octopus, true, and they would certainly attempt to do so. But we know the awkward short swarmer versus the tall stand-up boxer-puncher can go either way.

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It was. But I stand by what I said - no cracking big men.
That's a shame. I think Rocky was an absolutely brutal fighter, and quite capable of KOing a decent 6'3 220 pound fighter, which would have been both spectacular and point-proving. The bigger they are the harder they fall, after all.


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Pah !
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:36 PM   #23
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

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Originally Posted by Senya13
A popular fighter, but a rather poor boxer with few good accomplishments, and even those that are "good" are mostly tainted by one thing or another, non-existing fouls by his opponents, or the referee not noticing his fouls. A clown with good management, that has no placement anywhere in Top 15 light-heavyweight ratings, even less so in any other weight division.
A clown ?
He was fighting 15 and 20 rounders when he was 14 years old.
He fought the highly-regarded heavyweight Joe Jeanette when he was still just a 20 year-old 170 pound (at most) fighter. And some say he should've got that verdict.
He had a lot of fights, real fights.
He gave a brave showing against Jack Dempsey, he was over-matched but he came to fight. And whether you think Dempsey is overrated or not, there's no denying that he was a real fighter.
"Clown" cant be the right word for Carpentier.
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:37 PM   #24
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
A popular fighter, but a rather poor boxer with few good accomplishments,
He was one of the most precocious young fighters of all time compeeeting at national level from the age of 14 onwards. A child for gods sake. He fought from flyweight to heavyweight.

He went on to win the light heavyweight title and a peice of the heavyweight title.

Quote:
and even those that are "good" are mostly tainted by one thing or another, non-existing fouls by his opponents, or the referee not noticing his fouls. A clown with good management, that has no placement anywhere in Top 15 light-heavyweight ratings, even less so in any other weight division.
No place in the top 15?

Not in mine either but if he is in the top 30 he is a great fighter.
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:59 PM   #25
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

I am always hard on Aaron Pryor and Marvin Hagler, much harder than others - but can readily admit it. I don't think Marvin is quite all that is claimed and i think 95% of Pryor's reputation is built on two wins over what a critic would label an aged ex Featherweight. We all know Alexis was quite a bit more, but in reality he was advanced in age, WAY up in the weights and fighting someone who was a stylistic dilemna due to his unorthodoxy.
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Old 02-29-2008, 06:42 PM   #26
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

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Originally Posted by janitor
I consider him to be verry much under rated head to head.

Honestly he could spank just about anybody on their best day.
And they wouldn't know what hit them.
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:16 PM   #27
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
I am always hard on Aaron Pryor and Marvin Hagler, much harder than others - but can readily admit it. I don't think Marvin is quite all that is claimed and i think 95% of Pryor's reputation is built on two wins over what a critic would label an aged ex Featherweight. We all know Alexis was quite a bit more, but in reality he was advanced in age, WAY up in the weights and fighting someone who was a stylistic dilemna due to his unorthodoxy.
I'm on the fence regarding Hagler myself. I'm definitely not crazy in regards to him like the majority of the body, rightly or otherwise.
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:17 PM   #28
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

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Originally Posted by Maurice
Oh yeah Gene Tunney is fuqing overrated.
Not a chance.
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:17 PM   #29
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

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Originally Posted by Maurice
It's crazy How Jack Dempsey slides down the top heavyweight list. I cannot believe how sum people rank marciano above him. Oh yeah Gene Tunney is fuqing overrated.
Wow, your bias is about as clear as air.
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Old 02-29-2008, 08:10 PM   #30
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Default Re: Most overrrated fighters ? (or, who do YOU "underrate"?)

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Originally Posted by janitor
I consider him to be verry much under rated head to head.

Honestly he could spank just about anybody on their best day.


In another era maybe.
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