Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-23-2013, 08:33 PM   #1
mattdonnellon
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,653
vCash: 1000
Default Sam McVea/Vey

San McVey, who is touted as a coming champion by the Oxnard sports,
was born in Australia not quite twenty years ago. He has beaten the following boxers there, the contests taking place in and around his native town of Sydney;
Lee Haley, 3 rounds; Tim Jackson. 8; George Jones 2; Jim Flint, 4, and MiKe Nolan. 16. Since landing in California he has added three victories to his record, beating George Stewart at Salinas in 0 rounds and Tom Mcivce and George Sullivan at Oxnard in 3 and 7 rounds, respectively.

Picked this up on the 'net, I know this is kinda out there before but can anybody confirm/rubbish this report?
mattdonnellon is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 12-23-2013, 09:04 PM   #2
klompton2
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 604
vCash: 500
Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

I dont have any details on this except to say that it was not uncommon during this era for black fighters to claim foreign origin in order to make themselves seem more exotic, more marketable, and be discriminated against less.
klompton2 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2013, 01:16 AM   #3
Chuck1052
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 173
vCash: 500
Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

Sam McVey filled out at least two U.S. Passport applications, the first one in 1916 and the second one in 1919. On both applications, McVey listed his birthplace as "Welder," Texas. There is a Waelder, Texas, which is located in Gonzales County, an area where there were a number of white and black people with the last name of McVea living during 1870 and 1880.

According to the same passport applications, the first name of McVey's father was Andy. I have found an Andy/Andrew McVea/McVey/McVeay a number times in the California city directory and voting registration databases of Ancestry.com. Based on such research, I find it probable that Sam McVey lived in Pomona, California as early as 1888 and as late as 1898 before living in San Bernardino, California during 1898 and 1898.

According to items found in 1899 San Bernardino papers, one Andy McVea had some real problems while living in San Bernardino. In addition to his wife passing away during the early part of the year, Andy sentenced to a term of two months with the option of paying a fine of sixty dollars for hitting his 14-year-old daughter on the head with a chair. In addition, it appears that the mother of Andy's deceased wife, one Matilda "O'Rilley," was trying to gain custody of the children. But Matilda was poor widow who was living in Gonzales County, Texas at the time. It appears that certain members of the immediate McVea family moved back to Pomona after Andy's wife died.

I recall finding the information about McVey being born in Australia and having ring experience before arriving in Oxnard, California in an issue of the Oxnard Courier, a newspaper which is readily available in digital form on Ancestry.com. But I don't find this information about McVey to be credible, to put it mildly.

I believe that far less is known about McVey than we know about Jack Johnson, Sam Langford or Joe Jeannette, especially when it comes to his early life. Can you believe that I could not find McVey in any U.S. Census records? Of course, the 1890 U.S. Census records were almost completely destroyed in a fire during the early 1920s while McVey was overseas during 1910. If census takers caught up with McVey at all, he would have been in only the 1900 or 1920 U.S Census records.

Certain personal information about McVey which is found in Nat Fleischer's Black Dynamite Series and on his record in the 1978 Ring Record Book is inaccurate. For instance, McVey's birthplace listed as Oxnard, California in both the Black Dynamite Series and the said record book. The problem is that Oxnard wasn't founded until the late 1890s and it appears that McVey didn't come to the community until late 1901.

- Chuck Johnston
Chuck1052 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2013, 01:48 AM   #4
Rise Above
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 3,954
vCash: 210
Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

Very doubtful he was born in Australia but for the sake of posterity we will take him as our own. About time we had a decent heavyweight from these shores lol.
Rise Above is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2013, 04:30 PM   #5
mattdonnellon
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,653
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

I don't believe for a minute that he was born in Aussieland but I've read the bit about fights there before, but without the detail. Nolan is the only one that I found a boxing connection for.
mattdonnellon is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2013, 09:11 AM   #6
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,807
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdonnellon View Post
San McVey, who is touted as a coming champion by the Oxnard sports,
was born in Australia not quite twenty years ago. He has beaten the following boxers there, the contests taking place in and around his native town of Sydney;
Lee Haley, 3 rounds; Tim Jackson. 8; George Jones 2; Jim Flint, 4, and MiKe Nolan. 16. Since landing in California he has added three victories to his record, beating George Stewart at Salinas in 0 rounds and Tom Mcivce and George Sullivan at Oxnard in 3 and 7 rounds, respectively.

Picked this up on the 'net, I know this is kinda out there before but can anybody confirm/rubbish this report?
Not so, he was a Texas boy. McVey was but a teenager for 2 of the matches with Johnson, and only 20 for the final match.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2013, 10:47 AM   #7
mattdonnellon
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,653
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Not so, he was a Texas boy. McVey was but a teenager for 2 of the matches with Johnson, and only 20 for the final match.
What had Johnson to do with it?
What is at issue is how was Sam so good, so young with so little experience?
He beat Fred Russell in his forth fight, Russell was a fair heavyweight then at his peak, mixing with Choynski, Maher McCoy, Martin, Childs and Sharkey. He had just defeated Hank Griffin and Klondike.
He was fighting Johnson for the World coloured title and doing respectable at 19, and defeating Ed Martin and the useful Kid Carter, who was much better than his record suggested.
Cant think of many , if any , heavyweights that good, that soon. Tyson, Charlie Weinert, Louis-not really.While Sam never attained the great heights his early career suggested, he would defeat ever fighter he met from his debut until 1916 when he lost to Jack Thompson with the Exception of Jack Johnson. Langford, Jeannette, Clarke, Martin, Wills, and a slew of second tier White Hopes.I actually rate him above Jeannette and on a par with Wills.
mattdonnellon is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2013, 12:30 PM   #8
Chuck1052
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 173
vCash: 500
Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

When Sam McVey had his first known professional bout, there already was some boxing activity in the new small agricultural town of Oxnard, California, which had a population of 1,500 or 2,000. Another young fighter named Frank Fields also was a resident of Oxnard. Fields would go on to fight until 1912 or 1913 in addition to becoming an all-around boxing man who managed and trained fighters, promoted boxing shows and refereed bouts.

During 1901, Tom McCarey, only about 30 years old at the time, started promoting boxing shows on a regular basis at Hazard's Pavilion in Los Angeles, a rapidly growing city with a population of about 100,000 located in the booming area of Southern California. Hazard's Pavilion was a wooden structure which was built in late 1886 or early 1887 and had a capacity of about 4,000. It was the site for meetings, lectures, concerts and sports events until it was torn down in 1905 to make way for the Philharmonic Auditorium.

From 1901 to 1914, California was where so many important bouts were staged in the United States. This was largely due to the fact that professional boxing was banned in New York City and Chicago and only no-decision bouts lasting a maximum of six rounds could be staged in Philadelphia. In other words, California, essentially a backwater state with a population of only about 1.5 million people, became the boxing center for important bouts in the United States by default.

With McCarey promoting shows on a regular basis at Hazard's Pavilion, it was a huge step in Los Angeles becoming a major boxing venue. Before McCarey, boxing shows were staged in small athletic clubs and, later on, in Turners' Hall. For McCarey's shows, sizable crowds were seeing boxing show on a regular basis at Los Angeles for the first time.

- Chuck Johnston

Last edited by Chuck1052; 12-26-2013 at 03:08 PM.
Chuck1052 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2013, 04:31 AM   #9
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 20,143
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdonnellon View Post
What had Johnson to do with it?
What is at issue is how was Sam so good, so young with so little experience?
He beat Fred Russell in his forth fight, Russell was a fair heavyweight then at his peak, mixing with Choynski, Maher McCoy, Martin, Childs and Sharkey. He had just defeated Hank Griffin and Klondike.
He was fighting Johnson for the World coloured title and doing respectable at 19, and defeating Ed Martin and the useful Kid Carter, who was much better than his record suggested.
Cant think of many , if any , heavyweights that good, that soon. Tyson, Charlie Weinert, Louis-not really.While Sam never attained the great heights his early career suggested, he would defeat ever fighter he met from his debut until 1916 when he lost to Jack Thompson with the Exception of Jack Johnson. Langford, Jeannette, Clarke, Martin, Wills, and a slew of second tier White Hopes.I actually rate him above Jeannette and on a par with Wills.
In answer to your first question , if you disparage McVey you can by inference discredit his 3 times conqueror Johnson.It's agenda time once again.
mcvey is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2013, 09:15 AM   #10
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,807
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdonnellon View Post
What had Johnson to do with it?
What is at issue is how was Sam so good, so young with so little experience?
He beat Fred Russell in his forth fight, Russell was a fair heavyweight then at his peak, mixing with Choynski, Maher McCoy, Martin, Childs and Sharkey. He had just defeated Hank Griffin and Klondike.
He was fighting Johnson for the World coloured title and doing respectable at 19, and defeating Ed Martin and the useful Kid Carter, who was much better than his record suggested.
Cant think of many , if any , heavyweights that good, that soon. Tyson, Charlie Weinert, Louis-not really.While Sam never attained the great heights his early career suggested, he would defeat ever fighter he met from his debut until 1916 when he lost to Jack Thompson with the Exception of Jack Johnson. Langford, Jeannette, Clarke, Martin, Wills, and a slew of second tier White Hopes.I actually rate him above Jeannette and on a par with Wills.
What had Johnson to do with it? There were both Texas boys. ( Johnson and McVey ), and Johnson easily outclassed a teenaged McVey. Johnson who was better around 1907, had an easy time with McVey. So saying McVey was a beast early on is not accurate. They also have a linke to Burns, see below

On film McVey disappointed me, not because he was crude and mostly used a hook, but because he shies away from being hit, despite looking very sturdy.

In print, I have read he cries about fouls to the ref.

Russell was on the slide by the time McVey beat him, losing more than he won in 1901 and 1902. Hardly a big test, but one rising prospects all take. The Martin win however is good, but style wise a glass body and jaw doesn't match up with a good puncher as McVey was.

How good was McVey early? Hard to say. I think he was at his best from 1907-1915, not 1902-1905!

In terms of the best black heavies pre 1920, I Would say Langford, Jackson, Johnson, Jeannette, and Wills were better.

Does McVey have a winning record vs any of the above fighters? Without checking, I would say no. He also did not fight the best of the white heavies such as in his prime years ( 1907-1915 ) such as Willard, Smith, or McCarty, so its tough to say if he was better than they were.

One point of interest. McVey was initially supposed to meet Burns, not Jack Johnson! The result of that one could have been very interesting.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2013, 09:55 AM   #11
Chuck1052
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 173
vCash: 500
Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

Sam McVey has a losing record when facing the likes of Jack Johnson, Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette and Harry Wills, but he did have some wins over Langford, Jeannette and Wills. I also rank Johnson, Langford, Jeannette and Wills over McVey. In addition, I think McVey was a good puncher, but it should be pointed out that he never stopped Johnson, Langford, Jeannette or Wills despite fighting all of them so often. I doubt if Peter Jackson was better than McVey because it is hard for me to believe that fighters from the early days of boxing under the Marquis of Queensberry Rules were nearly as good as boxers who were active during the 20th Century.

- Chuck Johnston
Chuck1052 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2013, 10:18 AM   #12
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,807
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck1052 View Post
Sam McVey has a losing record when facing the likes of Jack Johnson, Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette and Harry Wills, but he did have some wins over Langford, Jeannette and Wills. I also rank Johnson, Langford, Jeannette and Wills over McVey. In addition, I think McVey was a good puncher, but it should be pointed out that he never stopped Johnson, Langford, Jeannette or Wills despite fighting all of them so often. I doubt if Peter Jackson was better than McVey because it is hard for me to believe that fighters from the early days of boxing under the Marquis of Queensberry Rules were nearly as good as boxers who were active during the 20th Century.

- Chuck Johnston
Solid data Chuck. Yes, McVey has a losing record vs the best he fought ( all of them ) and failed to stop any of the best he fought which perhaps means his ability and power is over rated. As I pointed out he did not fight the best white fighters of the times either.

Was McVey better than Jackson? Jackson was skilled, quick and held in high regard. It is very plausible that a fighter in the 1890's could have more Queensberry skill than a guy who fought in 1910. For example HOF fame ref Siler felt Jackson was better than Johnson by a good margin. Jim Corbett said the same. In addition Jackson's record is better than McVey's on the top competition he faced.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2013, 02:12 PM   #13
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 20,143
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Solid data Chuck. Yes, McVey has a losing record vs the best he fought ( all of them ) and failed to stop any of the best he fought which perhaps means his ability and power is over rated. As I pointed out he did not fight the best white fighters of the times either.

Was McVey better than Jackson? Jackson was skilled, quick and held in high regard. It is very plausible that a fighter in the 1890's could have more Queensberry skill than a guy who fought in 1910. For example HOF fame ref Siler felt Jackson was better than Johnson by a good margin. Jim Corbett said the same. In addition Jackson's record is better than McVey's on the top competition he faced.
Mcvey's wins over
Langford x2, flooring him in one.
3 kos over Martin.
5 wins over Clark.
2 wins over Jeannette ,flooring him 3 times in one.
2 wins over Wills, winning 9 of 10 rds in one.
More than match any signature win of Jackson's.
Who exactly did Jackson beat ? Slavin? Well who did he beat? A 40 years old Kilrain.
Cardiff? He retired with an arm injury.
Godfrey?
He had beaten no one of note when he fought Jackson.

Which win of Jackson's compares with McVey's wins over Jeannette,Langford and Wills?
Please show primary sourced quote by Corbett in which he states Jackson was better than Johnson by a good margin?
While you're at it you can produce the evidence to back up your other made up assertions that I have repeatedly asked for.
mcvey is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2013, 02:15 PM   #14
mattdonnellon
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,653
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

McVey beat one of the top 10 fighters in the World at 19 and he was not a prodigy?
From 1907-14 he wasn't fighting in the USA so his opportunity to fight "White" hopes was limited-do you think he dodged them?
He beat the likes of Jim Johnson and Jeff Clarke when these guys were good, Barry, Stewart, Lang, Lester, Bell were the best whites he could get his hands on. I'm not particularly interested in the Boxrecing of a fighter but of course he lost more than he won to Johnson and Langford, who wouldn't prime to prime? He beat Wills early, lost late. Jeannette and Sam are very close but reading reports I favour McVey, Joe would have lost the famous 49 round battle without the aid of illegal salt and oxygen, if I remember correctly.
As for Fred Russell he was no world beater but to take his scalp at 18 was a hell of an achievement for one with so little known experience, hence the interest in the claimed Australian fights(probably fictitious). Russell was just six weeks after his best performance, a win over Hank Griffin, hardly slipping. Fred just started to lose because he had stepped up.
mattdonnellon is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2013, 02:24 PM   #15
klompton2
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 604
vCash: 500
Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

The oxygen wasnt illegal at that time though was it?
klompton2 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013