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Old 12-27-2013, 02:59 PM   #16
mattdonnellon
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Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

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Originally Posted by klompton2 View Post
The oxygen wasnt illegal at that time though was it?
I dont know, I'm working from memory (increasingly faulty) but either way it was an unfair advantage.
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Old 12-27-2013, 05:20 PM   #17
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Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

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Originally Posted by mattdonnellon View Post
Jeannette and Sam are very close but reading reports I favour McVey, Joe would have lost the famous 49 round battle without the aid of illegal salt and oxygen, if I remember correctly.
I thought McVey used oxygen in the 49 round fight as well?
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Old 12-27-2013, 08:01 PM   #18
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Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

A number of the so-called white hope heavyweights had a very short shelf life, especially compared to the best black heavyweights of the time. Jack Johnson, Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette, Sam McVey and Harry Wills all had lengthy careers and were world-class fighters for at least a decade.

- Chuck Johnston
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Old 12-28-2013, 04:46 AM   #19
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Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

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Originally Posted by Chuck1052 View Post
A number of the so-called white hope heavyweights had a very short shelf life, especially compared to the best black heavyweights of the time. Jack Johnson, Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette, Sam McVey and Harry Wills all had lengthy careers and were world-class fighters for at least a decade.

- Chuck Johnston
Yes they did, Gunboat Smith' s viability as a top contender hardly lasted a year.
Kaufman quickly went from being a contender to a sparring partner for the champ. McCarty was tragically killed ,and his opponent Pelkey was ruined by the experience. The one withthe most longevity was probably Jim Flynn, who was recycled and resurrected on the basis of wins over the likes of a young Carl Morris, who became just an opponent type himself .
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Old 12-28-2013, 09:04 AM   #20
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Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

Jack Johnson rated McVey higher than Langford and Jeanette
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Old 12-28-2013, 11:48 AM   #21
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Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

McVey certainly seems to have two more wins just prior to the George Sullivan win, over George Stewart and Tom McKee, not In Australia but in Salinas and Oxnard, Ca.
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Old 12-28-2013, 11:50 AM   #22
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Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

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Originally Posted by BeerGut View Post
I thought McVey used oxygen in the 49 round fight as well?
Pretty sure he didn't (pretty sure is mumbo-jumbo for 95% sure!).
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Old 12-28-2013, 12:22 PM   #23
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Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

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Originally Posted by mattdonnellon View Post
Pretty sure he didn't (pretty sure is mumbo-jumbo for 95% sure!).
This suggests they both used it:
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Old 12-28-2013, 12:45 PM   #24
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Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

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Originally Posted by BeerGut View Post
This suggests they both used it:
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Thanks. Very interesting and balanced article.
My memory is based on the French papers too and "Boxing" the English magazine report.
Maybe it's just that Joe would have been a goner without the oxygen in the early(!) rounds when he was in trouble. I'll try and dig out my stuff on it.
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Old 12-28-2013, 01:43 PM   #25
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Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

I love the McVey lore and legend but this filmed footage of him at what should be his prime is hard for me to rationalize. There is just so much wrong with what he is doing.

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Old 12-28-2013, 04:52 PM   #26
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Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

About 25 or 30 years ago, I could not find any report of any bout that Sam McVey supposedly had in Salinas, California or Oxnard, California before his bout with George Sullivan took place. Yes, McVey got off to a fast start in his great career, which became very apparent when he stopped Fred Russell only a few months after fighting Sullivan in his first verified professional bout. But I think such a scenario is possible.

McVey was scheduled to fight Russell again in a bout at Hazard's Pavilion in Los Angeles, but sustained an injury while bowling. Jack Johnson was a substitute for McVey and won by disqualification in a bout with Russell. McVey didn't fight at Hazard's Pavilion until the early part of 1903.

Hank Griffin worked with McVey during the latter part of 1902. This may indicate that McVey was a promising fighter, but a relatively unpolished one.

Harry Stuart was the house referee in main events for Tom McCarey during the latter's first few years as a promoter. Afterwards, Charles Eyton replaced Stuart.

- Chuck Johnston
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Old 12-29-2013, 11:15 AM   #27
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Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Mcvey's wins over
Langford x2, flooring him in one.
3 kos over Martin.
5 wins over Clark.
2 wins over Jeannette ,flooring him 3 times in one.
2 wins over Wills, winning 9 of 10 rds in one.
More than match any signature win of Jackson's.
Who exactly did Jackson beat ? Slavin? Well who did he beat? A 40 years old Kilrain.
Cardiff? He retired with an arm injury.
Godfrey?
He had beaten no one of note when he fought Jackson.

Which win of Jackson's compares with McVey's wins over Jeannette,Langford and Wills?
Please show primary sourced quote by Corbett in which he states Jackson was better than Johnson by a good margin?
While you're at it you can produce the evidence to back up your other made up assertions that I have repeatedly asked for.
A quick reply as its the end of the year, and I am busy.

point 1 )

McVey had numerous fights with Langford and Jeanette, and they got the better of him. He did win a few, though I think one of his wins was very questionable. Wasn't Wills green when McVey beat him? I think so...as I said time for me is short today.

As stated McVey did not fight the best white heavies ( Smith, McCarty, Willard, Carpentier, Hart, Burns, Ect.. ) , so he's best remembered as the worst of the best black heavies of his time. It is plausible that Smith, Hart, Burns, or Willard were better. We don't know for sure.


point 2 ) Corbett rated Peter Jackson 1B after Jeffries. Johnson was not placed as close. I can pull the ratings by Corbett later, He thought highly of Jackson for sure.

point 3 ) Slavin was an undefeated fighter when Jackson fought him..good enough to be avoided by John Sullivan. Jackson also beat Dooley ( Aussie champ ) Denver Ed Smith, a 21-1 Peter Maher, Cardiff, McAuliffe, and Godfrey.

The Assuie heavies of the 1880's and 1890's were a good lot. My hunch is you don't know a lot about them if you asked who Jackson beat.

As for you last point, you could type it in. I'm not going to guess at your mysterious acquisitions.
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Old 12-29-2013, 01:21 PM   #28
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Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
A quick reply as its the end of the year, and I am busy.

point 1 )

McVey had numerous fights with Langford and Jeanette, and they got the better of him. He did win a few, though I think one of his wins was very questionable. Wasn't Wills green when McVey beat him? I think so...as I said time for me is short today.

As stated McVey did not fight the best white heavies ( Smith, McCarty, Willard, Carpentier, Hart, Burns, Ect.. ) , so he's best remembered as the worst of the best black heavies of his time. It is plausible that Smith, Hart, Burns, or Willard were better. We don't know for sure.


point 2 ) Corbett rated Peter Jackson 1B after Jeffries. Johnson was not placed as close. I can pull the ratings by Corbett later, He thought highly of Jackson for sure.

point 3 ) Slavin was an undefeated fighter when Jackson fought him..good enough to be avoided by John Sullivan. Jackson also beat Dooley ( Aussie champ ) Denver Ed Smith, a 21-1 Peter Maher, Cardiff, McAuliffe, and Godfrey.

The Assuie heavies of the 1880's and 1890's were a good lot. My hunch is you don't know a lot about them if you asked who Jackson beat.

As for you last point, you could type it in. I'm not going to guess at your mysterious acquisitions.
While I think that Sam McVey was not as formidable as Jack Johnson, Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette and Harry Wills, he was a truly great fighter in my book. In other words, I look at it as the glass being half-full rather than half-empty.

Has there been a white fighter who was as deserving of getting a shot at the world heavyweight title as Peter Jackson, Langford, Jeannette, McVey and Wills, but didn't get one like all of the mentioned fighters? For awhile, I couldn't think of one, but it dawned on me that Harry Greb also piled up an incredible record while fighting good heavyweights and didn't get a shot. Of course, Greb was a middleweight, which made it easier to overlook him. Another white fighter who did quite well against good heavyweights was Mickey Walker, who also didn't get a shot.

- Chuck Johnston
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Old 12-29-2013, 01:50 PM   #29
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Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

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Originally Posted by Chuck1052 View Post
Has there been a white fighter who was as deserving of getting a shot at the world heavyweight title as Peter Jackson, Langford, Jeannette, McVey and Wills, but didn't get one like all of the mentioned fighters? For awhile, I couldn't think of one, but it dawned on me that Harry Greb also piled up an incredible record while fighting good heavyweights and didn't get a shot. Of course, Greb was a middleweight, which made it easier to overlook him. Another white fighter who did quite well against good heavyweights was Mickey Walker, who also didn't get a shot.

- Chuck Johnston
Spot on.
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Old 12-29-2013, 03:06 PM   #30
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Default Re: Sam McVea/Vey

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
A quick reply as its the end of the year, and I am busy.

point 1 )

McVey had numerous fights with Langford and Jeanette, and they got the better of him. He did win a few, though I think one of his wins was very questionable. Wasn't Wills green when McVey beat him? I think so...as I said time for me is short today.

As stated McVey did not fight the best white heavies ( Smith, McCarty, Willard, Carpentier, Hart, Burns, Ect.. ) , so he's best remembered as the worst of the best black heavies of his time. It is plausible that Smith, Hart, Burns, or Willard were better. We don't know for sure.


point 2 ) Corbett rated Peter Jackson 1B after Jeffries. Johnson was not placed as close. I can pull the ratings by Corbett later, He thought highly of Jackson for sure.

point 3 ) Slavin was an undefeated fighter when Jackson fought him..good enough to be avoided by John Sullivan. Jackson also beat Dooley ( Aussie champ ) Denver Ed Smith, a 21-1 Peter Maher, Cardiff, McAuliffe, and Godfrey.

The Assuie heavies of the 1880's and 1890's were a good lot. My hunch is you don't know a lot about them if you asked who Jackson beat.

As for you last point, you could type it in. I'm not going to guess at your mysterious acquisitions.
I take it the underlined is a yule tide joke?
Cardiff retired with an injured arm against Jackson, Denver Ed Smith was no one special, Godfrey had beaten no one when Jackson beat him .

I think it is you who needs to brush up on these guys. I repeat Jackson does not possess a signature win to compare to McVey's over Langford , Jeannette, or Wills and this is not up for debate.
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