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Old 12-27-2013, 10:50 AM   #16
The Mongoose
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
I have watched that fight twice in the past couple months. An already tired Walcott shot his wad in the 11th and was begging to be KO'd afterward. Like I said, Marciano lands half a dozen similar rights in the fight, just none against a Walcott that tired and moving into the punch.


You would read this and think an exhausted Walcott didn't have any legs and just collapsed from a good but not very unique punch. Like the Bowe/Holyfield III knockout or something.

Than you watch the footage, and you see a single punch reduce an alert fighter into a corpse instaneously, and hear what sounds like a gun shot echo in the arena as the punch collides into his jaw. The whole damn crowd collectively groaned at the sound of it. Walcott looks dead as he hangs on the ropes, it's scary shit.

But you know..
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Old 12-27-2013, 11:05 AM   #17
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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You would read this and think an exhausted Walcott didn't have any legs and just collapsed from a good but not very unique punch. Like the Bowe/Holyfield III knockout or something.

Than you watch the footage, and you see a single punch reduce an alert fighter into a corpse instaneously, and hear what sounds like a gun shot echo in the arena as the punch collides into his jaw. The whole damn crowd collectively groaned at the sound of it. Walcott looks dead as he hangs on the ropes, it's scary shit.

But you know..
No. It was a hell of a shot, powerful and immaculately timed. I am just trying to put it into context. Let's put it this way, I don't think Walcott gets caught so open and flush with that shot in the 1st or even the 8th. You can view it in a vacuum if it pleases you.
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Old 12-29-2013, 12:37 AM   #18
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

I watched that knockout from inside a Dyson last Thursday, I could barely concentrate from coughing so much.
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Old 12-29-2013, 07:49 AM   #19
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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The thread is uneducated.

There is a popular conception unsurprisingly on the Classic board that after about 200lbs, no further power or chin benefits are gleaned from size.

The reality (and obvious) truth is that, in general, the bigger they are the harder they hit and the better they can take a hit.

There are guys like Holyfield with thick necks and jaw structure etc that can withstand much harder shots than their size would suggest and vice verse. But all else equal, size matters.

Rocky's punching power I doubt would make any serious impact at HW today... Whatsoever!

Of course he could drop Walcott... Look at him!
The point of the thread was to ask the question, not to claim any mythical qualities for Marciano. Do you think it was a great shot or not? Obviously you bring the size argument in again, but remember Holyfield was badly wobbled by Bert Cooper. Are you suggesting that was a better punch than Rocky landed on JJW?

I think you are obsessed with bodybuilder muscles. Jersey Joe wasn't a toothpick, you know!
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Old 12-29-2013, 07:55 AM   #20
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
No. It was a hell of a shot, powerful and immaculately timed. I am just trying to put it into context. Let's put it this way, I don't think Walcott gets caught so open and flush with that shot in the 1st or even the 8th. You can view it in a vacuum if it pleases you.
For once Marciano beat Walcott to the punch.
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:19 AM   #21
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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BS..... perfectly timed powerful punch, late power in a grueling fight 13th round and Walcott was fit as a fiddle...some heavyweights can not fight 10 rounds...the question asked was would that punch hurt or KO anyone and if it landed it certainty would KO or hurt anyone badly

Seamus was right. Marciano hit Walcott with similar shots earlier in the fight. It's all about consistency, and Marciano didn't consistently hit people with his Suzie Q.

You mention " good punchers " yet both McCall and Rahman hit Lewis with good punches, which most any fighter can throw. Conversely good " punchers " hit Lewis and had less effect than the 2 shots that Ko'd him.

So I don't know if that shot that hit Joe would have the same effect on the 240 + pounders we have today ( with the possible exception of Vlad ) but I doubt it.
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:38 AM   #22
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Let's put it this way, I don't think Walcott gets caught so open and flush with that shot in the 1st or even the 8th.

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
I said, Marciano lands half a dozen similar rights in the fight, just none against a Walcott that tired and moving into the punch.



Either you think he did or you didn't. This reads like a damn riddle.

Last edited by The Mongoose; 12-30-2013 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 12-30-2013, 12:42 PM   #23
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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While this is true, how many elite heavies have the stamina and willpower to land their best late in the fight as Rocky did? Very few.

I have seen heavy hitters like Tua punk out, and others like Foreman gas. Other power hitters like Shavers and Morrison, who I think hit harder than Rocky had shaky chins. Others like Dempsey or Tyson were front runners, meaning they were not as dangerous later in the fight.

So its really Rocky's stamina, solid but untested on the higher levels durability and will power that made him dangerous despite his relatively small size. It took him on average 9 rounds to win in his championship fights. He wasn't blowing the class away of his time, outside of the 2nd Walcott fight, where I feel Walcott opted not to get up until he heard 10, then was fine.

While I don't fully agree on Dempsey being a front runner this assessment is mostly accurate. The real marvel of Marciano was that he was able to carry such a punch into the 13th round. Very few fighters are able to retain power late. Him and Joe Louis but many other fighters fade-Foreman, Tyson neither one would be able to deliver that type of shot in the 13th round, let alone Shavers and other such heavy hitters.
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Old 12-30-2013, 10:01 PM   #24
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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While I don't fully agree on Dempsey being a front runner this assessment is mostly accurate. The real marvel of Marciano was that he was able to carry such a punch into the 13th round. Very few fighters are able to retain power late. Him and Joe Louis but many other fighters fade-Foreman, Tyson neither one would be able to deliver that type of shot in the 13th round, let alone Shavers and other such heavy hitters.
Conversely none of the fighters you mention were only 185 lbs, so the likelihood is they would be tiring by the 13th round.
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Old 12-31-2013, 12:44 AM   #25
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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While I don't fully agree on Dempsey being a front runner this assessment is mostly accurate. The real marvel of Marciano was that he was able to carry such a punch into the 13th round. Very few fighters are able to retain power late. Him and Joe Louis but many other fighters fade-Foreman, Tyson neither one would be able to deliver that type of shot in the 13th round, let alone Shavers and other such heavy hitters.
Dempsey knew his body very well, and when the occasion demanded paced himself very well. If he felt that he might be better off with not shooting his load in the early rounds he could weaken his opponent by his measured and vicious body blows weakening his foe til he resumed his gunning for a ko later in the bout as he did in 1920 against Bill Brennan, when he flattened Brennan with a one-two that broke Brennan's ankle from the
fall to the canvas in the TWELFTH Round...Dempsey was more than just a swarmer....He knew the ropes...
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Old 12-31-2013, 01:07 AM   #26
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

As to WHICH heavyweight falls from Marciano's right hand to Walcotts chin
in the 13th round ?
Answer EVERY heavyweight !!! Some posters today are obsessed with size...There is no
mastodon heavyweight today who is any stronger than was Primo Carnera, nor any braver
and the 205 pound Max Baer bounced Da Preem on the canvas like a yo yo...
We are not talking about boxing skills but the utter fact that whoever Marciano hit
with that perfectly leveraged right hand on the button in the 13th round visits LaLa land...
Say what you want about Jess Willard as a fighter, but he had a concrete chin astride a 255 lb body, and the 183 lb Dempsey massacred big Jess...
Years later the 198 lb Joe Louis crossed a right hand on a very strong man who was the
George Chuvalo of his era Paolino Uzcudun ,that drove Paolinos front teeth out along with his mouthpiece, rendering Uzcudun unconscious....So size has some advantages, but
it has it's drawbacks as well.
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Old 12-31-2013, 01:48 AM   #27
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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it has it's drawbacks as well.
Then why on earth do we bother with pesky weight divisions?

Max Baer was a big guy despite his weight. 81 inch reach. 6-2 1/2. He had huge leverage and the athletic strength and finesse to maximize it. He was anything but a small heavyweight. Reminds me a bit of Herbie Hide who also punched very, very hard. Ask Riddick Bowe.

A question I have asked many a time, I will repeat again to silence in response. Where is the 185 pound, sub 70 inch reach plodding power puncher who rules the heavyweight division these days?
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Old 12-31-2013, 01:51 AM   #28
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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Then why on earth do we bother with pesky weight divisions?

Max Baer was a big guy despite his weight. 81 inch reach. 6-2 1/2. He had huge leverage and the athletic strength and finesse to maximize it. He was anything but a small heavyweight. Reminds me a bit of Herbie Hide who also punched very, very hard. Ask Riddick Bowe.

A question I have asked many a time, I will repeat again to silence in response. Where is the 185 pound, sub 70 inch reach plodding power puncher who rules the heavyweight division these days?

Playing...basketball.
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Old 12-31-2013, 06:46 AM   #29
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
While this is true, how many elite heavies have the stamina and willpower to land their best late in the fight as Rocky did? Very few.

I have seen heavy hitters like Tua punk out, and others like Foreman gas. Other power hitters like Shavers and Morrison, who I think hit harder than Rocky had shaky chins. Others like Dempsey or Tyson were front runners, meaning they were not as dangerous later in the fight.

So its really Rocky's stamina, solid but untested on the higher levels durability and will power that made him dangerous despite his relatively small size. It took him on average 9 rounds to win in his championship fights. He wasn't blowing the class away of his time, outside of the 2nd Walcott fight, where I feel Walcott opted not to get up until he heard 10, then was fine.
Foreman took out Moorer with one shot to rewin the title when he was an old man , it was in the 10th rd. I don't see why he couldn't carry that power for another 3 rds.
As Burt has said Dempsey stopped Brennan in the 12th.
it isnt that either lacked stamina ,its the fact that they were often fighting at a frenetic pace .Marciano was steady but never frenetic.
Sonny Liston ko'd few people late ,is that because he couldn't or because they couldnt take his power that long?
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Old 12-31-2013, 08:18 AM   #30
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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Foreman took out Moorer with one shot to rewin the title when he was an old man , it was in the 10th rd. I don't see why he couldn't carry that power for another 3 rds.
As Burt has said Dempsey stopped Brennan in the 12th.
it isnt that either lacked stamina ,its the fact that they were often fighting at a frenetic pace .Marciano was steady but never frenetic.
Old Man Foreman fought very conservatively against Moorer, letting him move around him all night and pick his spots while he absorbed punishment from his shell, refusing to throw his right until he had a perfect opening. I don't doubt Foreman could carry his power for 30 rounds by fighting in such a way.

Marciano chased Walcott around the ring for 13 rounds trying to trap him, constantly moving and weaving inside, feinting, taking hard counters, swinging and often missing with big power shots at an above average HW pace.

I think the difference should be apparent.
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