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Old 01-02-2014, 09:27 AM   #46
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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Originally Posted by Bummy Davis View Post
There were always Big guys around, and a few even made it to the top Willard,Primo,Buddy Baer, its just that there was a well conditioned perfect heavyweight Named Louis & Dempsey around those days...even today there have only been a handful of big men that have been successful Lewis & the Klitschko's and throw in Bowe but I am not sure they would get past the Brown Bomber in fact I would be betting on Joe...I am a fan of the K bros and Lennox but Joe Louis was just too good and hit a lot harder & faster of combo than Rahman,Byrd,McCall,Purity,Brewster and was a great fighter not an average one

as far as the smaller men like Burt said there were exceptions to the rule as rare as they may be, Marciano and Langford & Fitz were even small in there day but they punched as hard as anyone and a clean shot by these men would and could take anyone out

Good points well made Bummy, but you haven't mentioned the fact that Joe needed to get close to execute his combinations, and I don't see him " shuffling " past the jabs of Lewis, or the K brothers. I'd pick all 3 of them to stop Joe around the 8th round.
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:10 AM   #47
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
my worthy adversary...Where is the 185 lb plodding puncher these days ?
Answer : Marciano is rotting in his grave today...
So, the contention is that Marciano was a once in a century talent that the sport has not seen since. I just wanted to make that clear.


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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
The question was could a right hand perfectly thrown by Rocky Marciano ko the "giants" of today if
it connects, NOT who was more likely to win... In any field of sports there are certain exceptions to the rules such as "bigger" is better...And as
proven DOZENS of times a Bob Fitz, a Sam Langford, a Jack Dillon,
a Jack Dempsey, a Mickey Walker, a Joe Louis, and a Rocky Marciano hit
hard enough to render anyone unconscious regardless of size...
Yes, Marciano "could" KO anyone. I have no problem with that. Would he likely get certain opponents in position to KO them before they had done sufficient damage to mitigate his offense? Therein lies the rub.
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Old 01-02-2014, 02:02 PM   #48
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

Marciano couldn't kayo Tex Cobb, that's for sure.Or Tim Witherspoon.
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Old 01-02-2014, 02:40 PM   #49
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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I don't accept that today's elite behemoths are NO stronger than Carnera, or Willard, but that is by the by. One thing is sure they are a lot more mobile, skillful, and better conditioned than either of those 2. And its that conditioning that would allow them to take Marciano's shots before swatting him like a fly.

It is futile to suggest that there would be even a 10th round if he fought in todays era at his size.
Fox come down to earth. To say that Carnera wasn't as conditioned as today's 12 round behemoths is ludicrous....Carnera was born strong with the body of Apollo, muscles upon muscles, who though not a great fighter
could and DID go 15 rounds without any trouble...Jess Willard was able to go TWENTY SIX rounds under a blazing afternoon sun in Havana and
flatten Jack Johnson with one right cross. These men came from harder
times than today's prima donna's for dang sure...
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Old 01-02-2014, 08:45 PM   #50
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Fox come down to earth. To say that Carnera wasn't as conditioned as today's 12 round behemoths is ludicrous....Carnera was born strong with the body of Apollo, muscles upon muscles, who though not a great fighter
could and DID go 15 rounds without any trouble...Jess Willard was able to go TWENTY SIX rounds under a blazing afternoon sun in Havana and
flatten Jack Johnson with one right cross. These men came from harder
times than today's prima donna's for dang sure...
Can't argue w that.
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Old 01-02-2014, 09:08 PM   #51
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Fox come down to earth. To say that Carnera wasn't as conditioned as today's 12 round behemoths is ludicrous....Carnera was born strong with the body of Apollo, muscles upon muscles, who though not a great fighter
could and DID go 15 rounds without any trouble...Jess Willard was able to go TWENTY SIX rounds under a blazing afternoon sun in Havana and
flatten Jack Johnson with one right cross. These men came from harder
times than today's prima donna's for dang sure...
It is a joy to read you, sir...and learn. Happy New Year!
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Old 01-03-2014, 10:25 AM   #52
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Fox come down to earth. To say that Carnera wasn't as conditioned as today's 12 round behemoths is ludicrous....Carnera was born strong with the body of Apollo, muscles upon muscles, who though not a great fighter
could and DID go 15 rounds without any trouble...Jess Willard was able to go TWENTY SIX rounds under a blazing afternoon sun in Havana and
flatten Jack Johnson with one right cross. These men came from harder
times than today's prima donna's for dang sure...
This is true in regards to strength and stamina, and even the hardness of their character. However, both Carnera and Willard lacked even a modicum of hand or foot speed, decent balance or displayed, on surviving footage at least, what today would be considered elite physical skillset for the sport.

A very few superheavies since have shown these skills and physical abilities on the elite level... Bowe, Lewis, Klits... you know the names.
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Old 01-03-2014, 11:08 AM   #53
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Fox come down to earth. To say that Carnera wasn't as conditioned as today's 12 round behemoths is ludicrous....Carnera was born strong with the body of Apollo, muscles upon muscles, who though not a great fighter
could and DID go 15 rounds without any trouble...Jess Willard was able to go TWENTY SIX rounds under a blazing afternoon sun in Havana and
flatten Jack Johnson with one right cross. These men came from harder
times than today's prima donna's for dang sure...

Burt, I'm all for a bit of nostalgia, but lets not turn it into blatant revisionism.

Carnera was a circus freak, sponsored by " business men " of dubious character in the US, and some of his decisions were equally if not more dubious than said businessmen.

The pace and skill level which he and Willard fought at was nothing like the big guys of the last 15 - 20 years. And as for the reference to Willard flattening the arm over his eyes, to shield them from the sun Jack Johnson, the less said about that the better.

Neither of those 2 would last more than a couple of rounds with either K brother, or Lennox.
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Old 01-03-2014, 11:44 AM   #54
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

So essentially the question posed is: could that punch flatten a modern 220+ heavyweight?

If it landed in those exact same circumstances, of course it could. That punch not so much landed on Walcott as went through him. Thrown with every ounce Rocco had behind it, right on the jaw, with Walcott coming in. It couldn't have landed any better.

No reason to think that he could not do the same to a man 30,40 lbs. heavier. As Mongoose said, Walcott looked dead. No stirring, no movement, no nothing. I'm surprised he had the guts to fight Marciano again, after receiving that shot.
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Old 01-03-2014, 12:02 PM   #55
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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And as for the reference to Willard flattening the arm over his eyes, to shield them from the sun Jack Johnson, the less said about that the better.
Willard knocked him out. Willard was starting to take control of that fight, watch the film. And I have seen plenty of fighters with their arms in the air after getting KO'd. Johnson made a lot of dubious claims, this one taking the proverbial cake.
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:02 PM   #56
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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Willard knocked him out. Willard was starting to take control of that fight, watch the film. And I have seen plenty of fighters with their arms in the air after getting KO'd. Johnson made a lot of dubious claims, this one taking the proverbial cake.
exactly....he was 37 yrs old...and was understandably blowing from 20th round onwards.
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Old 01-03-2014, 02:51 PM   #57
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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Originally Posted by Foxy 01 View Post
Burt, I'm all for a bit of nostalgia, but lets not turn it into blatant revisionism.

Carnera was a circus freak, sponsored by " business men " of dubious character in the US, and some of his decisions were equally if not more dubious than said businessmen.

The pace and skill level which he and Willard fought at was nothing like the big guys of the last 15 - 20 years. And as for the reference to Willard flattening the arm over his eyes, to shield them from the sun Jack Johnson, the less said about that the better.

Neither of those 2 would last more than a couple of rounds with either K brother, or Lennox.
So sir, what you are implying to me is that if I challenge your bogus opinions that today's dreadnaught heavyweights are better conditioned than the fighters of yesterday, I am tainted with a sickness labeled
"nostalgia", why not just put an "asterisk" after my posts and be done with ?....
Oh, in addition I am now a revisionist....Thank you very kindly...By the way
in the future if you have to call me anything, just call me for dinner ...
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Old 01-03-2014, 03:30 PM   #58
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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Originally Posted by ribtickler68 View Post
The right hand that floored Walcott in their first fight? I am interested to hear opinions on this and how much power is needed to knock pretty much any man out. Who takes the right and who crumbles? For example, would Lewis go if hit with the same shot; or Liston? Not debating the relative merits of fighters, just the quality of one punch.
IMHO not many/any would withstand it....But I am of the school of thought where the right punch or accumulation can penetrate any chin......rather than the school of thought where the right chin can endure any punch and/or accumulation.
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Old 01-03-2014, 06:47 PM   #59
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
So sir, what you are implying to me is that if I challenge your bogus opinions that today's dreadnaught heavyweights are better conditioned than the fighters of yesterday, I am tainted with a sickness labeled
"nostalgia", why not just put an "asterisk" after my posts and be done with ?....
Oh, in addition I am now a revisionist....Thank you very kindly...By the way
in the future if you have to call me anything, just call me for dinner ...
If you feel they are bogus opinions, challenge them any way you feel fit. Do give examples please of the hand speed, footspeed, workrate, mobility, ring generalship, power, coordination, and indeed conditioning of the likes of Willard, and Carnera being superior to those of the K2 bros, and LL.
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Old 01-03-2014, 06:53 PM   #60
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Default Re: Which Heavyweights fall from Rocky's right?

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Willard knocked him out. Willard was starting to take control of that fight, watch the film. And I have seen plenty of fighters with their arms in the air after getting KO'd. Johnson made a lot of dubious claims, this one taking the proverbial cake.
I suggest you watch the film again Seamus.

Jacks left glove / forearm is directly covering his eyes, with the right arm higher than that. A guy knocked out doesn't know if the sun is shining or not.
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