Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-01-2014, 07:48 AM   #31
choklab
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: bad to the bone and sexy
Posts: 4,944
vCash: 500
Default Re: Did the change from 15 rounds to 12 rounds usher in the era of super-heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury View Post
Holyfield was definitely a guy who was seen as not big enough at the time. I remember reading the pre-fight hype in B.I. where it was stated many times that Holyfield at 208 just was not big enough to beat Douglas. Someone (forget who) called him a pumped up cruiserweight with skinny legs.

I do agree that he needed to become stronger and more robust. Going life and death with Dokes - although a stirring fight - did highlight that if an old cokehead like Dokes could be that competitive, then Holyfield would struggle against the elite fighters.

The thing too though, that although he lost to Bowe, he also did beat him in the return match and although he did lose to Lewis both times, the second fight was a lot closer and more competitive with a Holyfield past his best.
Of course, he was bigger and stronger at that point, but he was always considerably smaller than both but gave them both plenty to think about. (At least, in the return matches.)

Once Lewis started to establish dominance over the division, we had a clear #1 guy. But before that happened nobody was actually dominant, so I'm not sure if it was a lack of size so much on Holy's part or just that there was a lot of decent competition back then.
I always felt that during this era that stamina was rationed out for explosive bursts because everyone was carrying artificial body mass. Long, short and the tall heavyweights alike. It became a trend to rest for part of the round. Old timers used to coast, but never actually rest. I remember Holfeild just stopped fighting altogether as Bowe was begging to be knocked out. It was like he needed to wait to recharge his battery or something.
choklab is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 01-01-2014, 08:13 AM   #32
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,771
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did the change from 15 rounds to 12 rounds usher in the era of super-heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by rex11y View Post
I have been pondering this one for a while. Would the 15 round distance offer the advantage to some of the smaller heavyweights in terms of their ability to come on in the later rounds. I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts.
No, but the extra three rounds could favor the fighter in better condition. Late round KO's, especially from behind are part of what makes boxing special. Many other sports are over in the last 9 minutes of the game, not so for boxing.

The trouble is the Klitschko's, Lewis and Bowe ( when Bowe was in shape ) often had more stamina that there opponents.

Who had more left in their battles, Lewis and Bowe, or Holyfield?

Every fighter has a best weight for them, which has to do with body fat percentage and cardio fitness. So Wlad at 245 pounds at 6'6" is perfect for him, but Tua at 245 pounds at 5'10" is not.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2014, 09:03 AM   #33
Bummy Davis
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 8,834
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did the change from 15 rounds to 12 rounds usher in the era of super-heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
No, but the extra three rounds could favor the fighter in better condition. Late round KO's, especially from behind are part of what makes boxing special. Many other sports are over in the last 9 minutes of the game, not so for boxing.

The trouble is the Klitschko's, Lewis and Bowe ( when Bowe was in shape ) often had more stamina that there opponents.

Who had more left in their battles, Lewis and Bowe, or Holyfield?

Every fighter has a best weight for them, which has to do with body fat percentage and cardio fitness. So Wlad at 245 pounds at 6'6" is perfect for him, but Tua at 245 pounds at 5'10" is not.

I agree with the weight thing, everyone is different Vlad is a great weight at 6"6 and 245lbs because he is also heavily muscled in the upper body....Leg weight is easy to put on and in the case of Tua he may have been better served to have trimmed down and find the best balance for him, he could have weighed much less and retained his strength and power

Joe Louis would blow up to 230-240 and still looked more fit than a lot of the fighters in the last few decades but around fight time got down to his best weight....Heavyweights (great trainers) back then had a limit even for heavyweights and a correct balance
Bummy Davis is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2014, 11:30 AM   #34
obviousalt
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 933
vCash: 6860
Default Re: Did the change from 15 rounds to 12 rounds usher in the era of super-heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummy Davis View Post
many of the bigger guys could hardly fight a fast paced 12 rounder never mind a 15 rounder. I remember the 80's with guys like Page & Tubbs, boring fights, guys leaning on one another with no action, David Bey, Leroy Jones...too much weight
What about Tua-Ibeabuchi?
Those guys could keep throwing even if Tua was 5'9.5 and 226 lbs and Ibeabuchi 6'1 230+
obviousalt is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2014, 02:56 PM   #35
choklab
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: bad to the bone and sexy
Posts: 4,944
vCash: 500
Default Re: Did the change from 15 rounds to 12 rounds usher in the era of super-heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by obviousalt View Post
What about Tua-Ibeabuchi?
Those guys could keep throwing even if Tua was 5'9.5 and 226 lbs and Ibeabuchi 6'1 230+
Both guys were below 240 and were still young men who could still maintain youth speed. It represents an explainable exception to the rule. Both guys were carrying artificial body mass. Unnatural muscular development. Tua was 199 or so when he turned pro.
choklab is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2014, 06:13 PM   #36
prime
BOX! Writing Champion
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Guadalajara, Jal., Mexico
Posts: 1,229
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did the change from 15 rounds to 12 rounds usher in the era of super-heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elroy View Post
Ok, there seems to be a misconception here regarding the superheavyweights.

One thing my post just before forgot to mention that should be declared is that one thing that has in general gone down now are the punchstat figures. But this should not be interpreted as a "fitness" issue. The athletes are in general much fitter in terms of VO2max today but the more muscles an athlete has, the faster he burns energy meaning if he does not pace himself he will gas quicker than a smaller guy because each movement and each punch requires far more energy. The punches they DO throw now days are in general more explosive and transfer more force however and the total effort from the boxer and damage inflicted has increased.

Fewer harder punches > More but pillow punches.
I believe this is true.

Some years ago I showed an ex-girlfriend proficient in judo Ali's KO of Foreman. The first thing she said was, "Boxers then did not hit each other as cruelly as they do today."

My translation: someone accustomed to seeing today's fast-twitch performers would see yesteryear's fighters as less concussively powerful...because they were.

With modern sports science influencing conditioning in all sports today, boxing too has changed to more concentrated--and more effective--effort punch per punch.

The 12-round limit has facilitated--not ushered in--this transition, as boxers today can focus training on speed and power, without undue concerns with stamina. Somebody like Saúl "Canelo" Álvarez can succeed by bulking up and improving speed, while by and large foregoing the longer stamina-building morning runs of yesteryear. Against pedestrian opposition at least, on fight night, he can pick his spots, punch with great effectiveness, coast the rest of the round, and become a world champion. Over 12 rounds, it is a winning formula.

The older fan knows, however, that Rounds 13 to 15 bring other factors more forcefully into play: strategy and generalship, endurance and heart--the ingredients of true greatness--that are considerably undermined by the easier 12-round route.

The 12-round distance was ushered in--at least party--to protect fighters, well before the advent of pervasive performance enhancing drugs. Together, these two factors have helped make boxing--for better or worse--what it is today.
prime is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2014, 10:41 PM   #37
DaveK
Vicious & Malicious
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,820
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did the change from 15 rounds to 12 rounds usher in the era of super-heavyweights

Its okay. If you fought John L. With a time machine, you wouldn't taste a right hand because you'd see it coming a mile away... You'd simply step back or to the side and he'd fall on his face. Youd become the heavyweight champion by way of gravity knockout!
DaveK is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2014, 10:52 PM   #38
Foxy 01
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,534
vCash: 500
Default Re: Did the change from 15 rounds to 12 rounds usher in the era of super-heavyweights

Flab / Fat = Oxygen = Stamina = the ability to fight for a period of time.

Look no further than Bruno who looked like an Adonis, but after 6 rounds slowly dropped both his arms and his workrate, and then became vulnerable.

Conversely look at " prime " Tyson, Holmes, Lewis, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, who all carried that " film " of flab about them.

I am not talking Jameel McCline here, just guys who kept enough fat about them to keep up their workrate.
Foxy 01 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2014, 04:47 AM   #39
choklab
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: bad to the bone and sexy
Posts: 4,944
vCash: 500
Default Re: Did the change from 15 rounds to 12 rounds usher in the era of super-heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummy Davis View Post
I agree with the weight thing, everyone is different Vlad is a great weight at 6"6 and 245lbs because he is also heavily muscled in the upper body....Leg weight is easy to put on and in the case of Tua he may have been better served to have trimmed down and find the best balance for him, he could have weighed much less and retained his strength and power

Joe Louis would blow up to 230-240 and still looked more fit than a lot of the fighters in the last few decades but around fight time got down to his best weight....Heavyweights (great trainers) back then had a limit even for heavyweights and a correct balance
Not all new ideas are GOOD ideas. The corect training balence for a heavyweight went out of the window once newer ways to build up a fighters weight began to be borrowed from other sports. Compromises were made and we lost the organic, natural athletes who were sharper punchers conditioned exclusively in more sport specific boxing training.

I think the wrong ballence was struck. Obsession with size, mass, interval training took away gym time from proper boxing training. Call it old school, it was developed over hundreds of years exclusively for boxers to condition a fighter whilst he practiced techniques. It worked. Then along came some scientists who out of the blue from the world of bodybuilding invited themselves into championship boxing with so called sports science and began to apply this to a tried and tested training formulas that already worked.

Bottom line?

We got bigger heavyweights but we did not get better heavyweights.
choklab is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2014, 04:48 PM   #40
louis54
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 123
vCash: 500
Default Re: Did the change from 15 rounds to 12 rounds usher in the era of super-heavyweights

thanks fist of fury for the interesting test of gloves and bare knuckle
louis54 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2014, 08:31 PM   #41
prime
BOX! Writing Champion
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Guadalajara, Jal., Mexico
Posts: 1,229
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did the change from 15 rounds to 12 rounds usher in the era of super-heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elroy View Post
I would like to reiterate though that going from 15 rounds to 12 has only been a "marginal" cause for this. As I have stated earlier, the physical endurance to go 15 rounds is not a far cry from going 12 (about the difference between a 10km and 8km race, if you look at 2 running athletes trained to run these differences, they aren't much different in muscle mass or in VO2max. Boxing is not running but all else being equal skill-wise it does boil down to the purely athletic side of it. Strategic ring craft can be effectively carried out over 12 rounds as well as over 15.
I do believe the 15-round distance makes a difference.

And your words say it well.

Sugar Ray Leonard would not have knocked out Thomas Hearns in 12. Over 15, Marvin Hagler would have probably finished Ray, who negotiated his way out of the longer distance, by the way.

On the other hand, Ray would have probably again done away with a fading Hearns over 15 in their rematch.

Imagine the Thrilla in Manila going only 12 rounds. Or Holmes-Cooney. Or Walcott-Marciano. Or Louis-Conn. Or Pryor-Argüello. Or Argüello-Mancini. Or, of course, Mancini-Kim.

Yes, it is a matter of stamina: physical and mental.

With a championship at stake, many also-ran teams in many sports have held the lead before dramatically falling apart and losing to the eventual champ.

In any competitive activity, those last few inches many a time separate the men from the boys. In boxing, all the more so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elroy View Post
It is only since Lennox Lewis and the Klitschko's that there has emerged 6'6"ish boxers that have good conditioning and skills (rather than the oafish or gangly ones of previous eras). I think personally this is a reflection of better skills training myself but of course that wont find much support on the Classic forum lol
I wouldn't say today's skills are better--just better suited to today's focus on power over 12.

By and large, I believe today's fighters punch harder, but, head to head, I would still take several of the best fighters from yesteryear over the best modern (mid-'90s to present) fighter in every corresponding division.

Personally, I prefer the old-school--basically because in the past it was just you and the road, you and the gym, you and your diet. You didn't have to mess with putting foreign substances in your body to be competitive.

Technique-wise, I am convinced boxing trainers of yore knew everything there was to know about being the best boxer; if anything, I believe today's emphasis on fighting in powerful spurts has undermined overall mastery of the Sweet Science. I see too many beefcake performers today not jabbing enough or working off the jab, not using proper ring movement or applying effective pressure.

The reason is evident: too many sports scientists as trainers; not enough trainers steeped in first-hand knowledge of the sport.
prime is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2014, 09:09 PM   #42
fists of fury
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: March for Revenge
Posts: 5,725
vCash: 1887
Default Re: Did the change from 15 rounds to 12 rounds usher in the era of super-heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by prime View Post

the reason is evident: Too many sports scientists as trainers; not enough trainers steeped in first-hand knowledge of the sport.
x 1,000,000.
fists of fury is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2014, 03:28 AM   #43
choklab
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: bad to the bone and sexy
Posts: 4,944
vCash: 500
Default Re: Did the change from 15 rounds to 12 rounds usher in the era of super-heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elroy View Post

Honestly when I calculate fair stats between past time and modern fighters I often write off KO'd past round 12 as "overly late KO's" because it was a sign of featherfists and displays a lack of either skills or punching power to have gotten them out of there within 12.
A sign of feather fists?

Could it be that it was a sign that it was an evenly matched skilful display of boxing between two seasoned fighters where neither man had the dreaded manufactured 20-0 record against nobody? Then in the championship rounds an advantage was realised?

I think you see boxing as a power event. It's not pulling trucks and rolling tractor tyres. It's a martial art.
choklab is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2014, 05:33 AM   #44
Wass1985
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 334
vCash: 500
Default Re: Did the change from 15 rounds to 12 rounds usher in the era of super-heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elroy View Post
No I don't. But when I see 2 guys slugging each other back and forth the whole time and no knockouts and the punches look like I could take them myself that makes me more than a little suspicious!
Mike Tyson and Razor Ruddock threw everything but the kitchen sink at each other and they went the distance, are they feather fisted?? It's all about levels, they become contenders and champions for a reason.
Wass1985 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2014, 06:38 AM   #45
fists of fury
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: March for Revenge
Posts: 5,725
vCash: 1887
Default Re: Did the change from 15 rounds to 12 rounds usher in the era of super-heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elroy View Post

Honestly when I calculate fair stats between past time and modern fighters I often write off KO'd past round 12 as "overly late KO's" because it was a sign of featherfists and displays a lack of either skills or punching power to have gotten them out of there within 12.
Yeah but there is a lot more to boxing than brute force and power. Magnanasaki who was (is?) a poster here and a professional heavyweight who had sparred Wlad, Foreman, Holyfield and others said that power is one of the most overrated aspects to a fight, and I totally agree.

Going the distance in a slugfest or an action-packed fight usually means that the combatants are well matched; it does not mean at all that the boxers are lacking in skill or are featherfisted.
Would you call Ibeabuchi or Tua featherfisted in their slugfest? Or Morales and Barerra in their three wars?
fists of fury is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013